Are you a socialst?

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Most people don't even relaize what socialism actually is. The term is abused. The basis of socialism is no private property. Everything is owned by the state or government and all goods produced nationally are controlled similarly by the state. Want to run your own business someday?...you can't. The state owns it. Think of a good invention?...submit it to the state. You want a better life for your family by working harder than the next guy and achieving wealth?...go fuck yourself, submit it to the state. Want a new car?...keep your 1980, good enough. Want to eat more, nah, you need to lose weight anyway ya fucking pig. The food will be disributed and you'll get what we (state) tells you to eat.

Anyone who lives in this country who actually considers themselves a true socialist or what we have socialism is a fucking idiot. We have become more and more dependent on the government because we are getting lazy and Obama encourages people to be as such. You allow 47% of the people to not pay federal taxes and then promise them more free shit on the backs of working americans, you have a 47% canned vote. You need only convince 3%-4% and you win.

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... Isn't that the definition of communism ? And I mean Cold war russian communism ?

Because you know... the Socialist party here, (and I vote for them so I am called a socialist) is a moderate left. They think that some business areas should be ruled by the state (like trains and electricity for example), and it actually didn't work so bad for us...

Socialists, french version, also mean that it is completely normal that everyone should have access to healthcare and enough to live decently. They basically think that paying taxes to the government is completely ok.

But I think under the US conception of what is left wing, even Sarkozy would be considered left-wing. I realize, when I watch the US elections, how moderate we are in politics.

Like I said, a lot of these terms have been bastardized and watered up and down to mean whatever people feel they need to explain themselves. Communism, from my memory, actually refers to a communal belonging to all. Meaning there are no classes, no governing body and collective ownership to all. Nobody is wealthy and there are no poor. Common good for all prevails. This is the THEORY of it...usually total bullshit. Now, it means one political ideolgy, one style of governing the class, state ownership, and the ultra poor working for the super wealthy etc... Even Marx never outlined how communism for the people actually functioned. Either way, capitalism is FAR better than socialism or communism if you like free will. If you like being treated like a retarded 4 year old, the others work.

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Originally Posted by Tiny Vessels

My great grandfather wasfrom Yugoslavia. He left Yugoslavia because of the fighting what was on going then. He moved the family to New Jersey and had my grandfather there and when he was about 5 years old they moved to California and my grandfather has lived there ever since.



Godxilla- I also believe in lower taxes and reduced dependency on the government.

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The last line here is where I stand. Politically, I tend to be pretty middle of the road. I'm not a socialist.

I am very left-wing, I guess I could be considered a socialist. I think people are equal and should be treated that way. I think freedom is extremely important and some form of socialism is the only way today that I can see that being preserved. I think Marx had many good points, but I fucking hate the USSR and similar "communist" dictatorships. There has never been a Marxist state as of yet, no matter how much USSR propaganda tries to tell you differently. The USSR didn't have one Marxist core value, and arguably not even any socialist values either.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Most people don't even relaize what socialism actually is. The term is abused. The basis of socialism is no private property. Everything is owned by the state or government and all goods produced nationally are controlled similarly by the state. Want to run your own business someday?...you can't. The state owns it. Think of a good invention?...submit it to the state. You want a better life for your family by working harder than the next guy and achieving wealth?...go fuck yourself, submit it to the state. Want a new car?...keep your 1980, good enough. Want to eat more, nah, you need to lose weight anyway ya fucking pig. The food will be disributed and you'll get what we (state) tells you to eat.

Anyone who lives in this country who actually considers themselves a true socialist or what we have socialism is a fucking idiot. We have become more and more dependent on the government because we are getting lazy and Obama encourages people to be as such. You allow 47% of the people to not pay federal taxes and then promise them more free shit on the backs of working americans, you have a 47% canned vote. You need only convince 3%-4% and you win.

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You have a very narrow definition of socialism which reeks McCarthy out of it. Have you heard of a philosophy called Anarchism, which is a sub-category of socialism? There is not much state involved there. The type of socialism you describe is USSR style of state socialism which very few socialists today subscribe to. And calling Obama a socialist is straight out lying. You obviously don't know how far right-wing he is.

You are right about the term "socialism" doesn't have much meaning to it anymore. You saw during the Cold War how both the US and the USSR called Soviet socialist, although they operated with two completely different conceptions and both were wrong. Noam Chomsky elaborates on this..

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Pure socialism is no better than pure capitalism? Go to a purely socialistic country and have a conversation with the people. One (capitalsim) thrives on the individual success based on individual effort and reward. You are allowed to be happy. The other assumes you are too fucking stupid to breath and life sucks.

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A purely socialist country has never existed, nor has a purely capitalist society. Think about how a purely capitalist country would look like. There would be little to no institutions to take care of the population. Sure you can be happy if you have the money for it. No public services at all. Education, health care, medication, legal system, everything would be missing. If you get sick you better hope you have enough money to get help, and also hope that it is a common enough sickness so there is a market big enough for doing such services. You wouldn't want anything to not be profitable. Of course, if you are rich you are entitled to better health services than poorer people. After all, it was you who inherited your family's wealth, not your next-door-neighbour who worked all his life for low payment. We wouldn't want anyone interfering with what to pay workers, that would be unfair. If he dies, there are always more people who wants to work for nearly nothing.

I would easily live in a purely socialist country as that would be an utopia, where my health and safety are secured. The only way to be happy is to have your uttermost necessary needs protected and preserved. That would never happen in a purely capitalist society, because you would constantly fear for your life.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Like I said, a lot of these terms have been bastardized and watered up and down to mean whatever people feel they need to explain themselves. Communism, from my memory, actually refers to a communal belonging to all. Meaning there are no classes, no governing body and collective ownership to all. Nobody is wealthy and there are no poor. Common good for all prevails. This is the THEORY of it...usually total bullshit. Now, it means one political ideolgy, one style of governing the class, state ownership, and the ultra poor working for the super wealthy etc... Even Marx never outlined how communism for the people actually functioned. Either way, capitalism is FAR better than socialism or communism if you like free will. If you like being treated like a retarded 4 year old, the others work.

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Again, socialism != totalitarianism. Communism means no classes and collective ownership, not dictatorship and ownership by the state. If you like free will so much, then capitalism is the last place to go. You should try Anarchism where you actually are free and completely responsible for your own actions.

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Originally Posted by Godxilla

Am I a "socialst," as you call it?
Well, define socialism. According to George Orwell, Socialism is not much different than Fascism. Both dictate commerce and restrict business, similar to Obama. They both must restrict rights, so that people cannot get ahead. Both rely on the thought that the government must stand for the people, for the people cannot control their own lives.

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Haha! No. George Orwell was a left-wing socialist. He subscribed to Trotskyism. He was as socialist as you get them. He criticised totalitarianism and dictatorships, like the one he described in 1984. The government in 1984 is not socialist.

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Fascists control based on race, but socialist control based off class.

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What? If there is one thing socialism stands for, then it is abolishing classes. How do they control based off class when there are no classes?

I agree with you, Rage, but I'd use a better example than health care, since the US already doesn't have health care for most people, so there's no "imagining" required. However, imagine a country without the urban infrastructure, without the country mapped out with roads and highways for shipping. Imagine a country where each city and state has to come up with their own road system - imagine how fun it'd be trying to get from state to state. Imagine if each city and state had private police and firemen. How terrible and inconsistent they'd be from place to place... Imagine how many stupid people we'd have if there wasn't public education for free and we didn't require people to go to school. We'd need more welfare for all the unemployed idiots and more prisons due to uneducated people getting themselves into trouble. Public education, police, firemen, and urban planning are all parts of socialism. The US is not purely capitalist, and it's not because of Obama (who's just as much of a capitalist as the Republicans). A purely capitalistic society would be awful. The majority of people would be dying because they'd be working for pennies a day (government/socialism is responsible for minimum wage laws)...

Anarchy? That's funny. Anarchy is little more than a theory or state of mind only seriously considered by idiots. Society cannot function based on anarchy. Cool thought though.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Anarchy? That's funny. Anarchy is little more than a theory or state of mind only seriously considered by idiots. Society cannot function based on anarchy. Cool thought though.

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Why can't a society function based on anarchy? We don't have any empirical data on such a society as it has yet to form. And why are anarchists idiots?

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Originally Posted by RageAndLov

Why can't a society function based on anarchy? We don't have any empirical data on such a society as it has yet to form. And why are anarchists idiots?

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Because he thinks it means political disorder and lawlessness. Anarchism is confusing because on one side, you really do have that type of anarchy which is lawless and full of disorder, while on another side you have something close to communism, and on yet another side, you have something very similar to libertarianism. I find all types of anarchism to be as idealistic and unrealistic as any other pure political philosophy - especially libertarianism.

Socialists rule the way they do to eliminate class. Fascists rule to eliminate race. After all, if you kill every non-Aryan, there's no such thing as race.
And if socialists rule to eliminate class, then it's no wonder that there all classless. Ha ha.

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