Islam in Europe

[Mota Boy]

Today a Muslim school was bombed in the Netherlands in an apparent retaliation of the murder of Theo van Gogh, in an apparent retaliation for his movie about the oppression of women under Islam.

And, of course, France recently implemented a policy banning religious symbols from schools, a policy directly aimed at combatting the rising presence of Islam. We also see many nationalist parties gaining ground across the continent.

So you think that this is just a difficult period of integration comparable to violence in the American south during our civil rights movement, or do you think that this is just the beginning of a larger conflict?

[HornyPope]

A huge topic. Too many questions. Try breaking it down in parts -- maybe i'll bite then.

[SicN Twisted]

The problems with Arabs in Europe have existed for over a hundred years, and on a much greater scale then racism in the American south because it happens throughout Europe and is still reletively state sanctioned.

I'll add that France's banning of religious imagery has nothing to do with Islam - Christians aren't allowed to wear crosses either. This is because the current French republic was established to reaciton to the oppressive Catholic church, and the government wants to take a stand against public religion, which they believe includes religious displays in public schools.

[HornyPope]

When I mean the topic is huge i'm not saying "lol wtvr tihs to long 4 me", I mean the issues you brought up are each too broad and could be debated for long pages unless shaped into more specifics. So i'll follow up on Sic's post:

Islam has a very long history in Europe. Many smallish ethic communities, more than half of which I can't claim to know by name, have lived in those lands for centuries. Many have mingled--and merged--with the Euro Caucasians. They are entierly different from the post-WW2 immigrant wave.

As for the French law, it is aimed at all religions in the nation. That a lot of Islamists have taken it as a personal injure offers no support to your assertion of "a combat against Islam". One's studying of the French history and culture will prove that this is a predictable and imminent curve. Whether this decree transcends one's personal freedoms is an entire debate on it's own.

[Mota Boy]

I'm aware that you thought the post was too broad. Quite simply though, I don't know that much about the issue, so I was hoping to get a general assessment of European race relations. My idea of the situation is that it's an escalating problem that could be one of the big issues in Europe's next century.

Also, while the French ban on religious symbols is directed at all symbols, every characterization of the law I've heard suggests that it was created largely to enforce secularism on France's Muslim community. True, it's universal, but it was created in part as a response to the rise in women in traditional Islamic guard visible in French schools, hospitals etc.

OK, my brain is feeling far too fried to continue.

[JoY]

intolerance is a bitch.
I don't understand why so many still follow the Koran & worship their religion like it's sugar 'n fat, if it simply goes against human rights. it breeds intolerance not only against other cultures & religions, but even against their own women. *shakes head*
why believe in the book that's mean? just fucking switch, man.

[wheelchairman]

There are Christians every bit as bad as the most intolerant muslim. Especially in America for example, so don't believe that it's unique to Islam.

Now one should also and always remember that the position of Muslims in Europe is a precarious one. The immigrants are and will not be able to integrate into society. This would be due to the apprehension we "natives" have. Immigrants from the middle East cannot use their university degrees for anything, they cannot get any job that they are qualified for in whatever country they chose. In Denmark this means many of them open pizzarias, kiosks and drive taxis to make whatever little money they can.

This creates an element of society divided along race and class lines. The class that the muslim immigrants usually fall into is what is usually called the lumpenproletar. They get the shittiest jobs, generally live in ghetto-like conditions and are pretty much isolated from "normal" society. Crime is higher in these conditions because well obviously this is a step down for them. I mean they live in society that won't accept them, and no matter how hard they work they can't change that. Not only that, but instead of looking at the problem with it's true roots, nationalists of each European country say that it is due to their culture and skin color, that's why they commit more crimes, that's why they do whatever. Anything bad they ever do, that's why, there can't possibly be an explanation. They can't possibly be representing a class that has always existed in society. According to European historians, welfare has solved all problems. Now immigrants have come and messed everything up, actually what really happened is that immigrants are now the ones doing the shit-jobs and the former lumpenproletar is pushed up, been re-educated for a new shiney job.

So the situation in Europe now has several problems. But I am merely trying to outline what I know from my experience in Denmark. What we have is people travelling from countries which have relatively poor conditions for their citizens, whose cultures are generally backwards and slightly intolerant to change. That's seen from European eyes, however European culture is hardly the epitome of progress, but we'll never admit that.

Anyways as far as banning the religious symbols in France, that makes sense. As far as banning the hijab in Europe (specifically in France at the moment), that makes sense as well, it's a remnant and reminder of a strong patriarchic society. However what we are doing is trying to force feminism on a people who perhaps aren't ready for it yet. Who have a hard time accepting it and who will rebel against it, a very hard way to solve contradictions among the people.

Oh and on the banning of religious symbols, it was strongly supported by Le Front, who are fiercely nationalist, and thus fiercely anti-muslim. That's where the misconception comes from.

Anyways these are my thoughts.

[Nina]

my opinion is that ALL religious symbols should be
banned from school, not just the islamic ones. i had
no idea that in france they actually had such rules.
well, i appriciate and support it.
call me closed minded, but i absolutely believe that
"religion class" should not be taught at school but
somewhere parents can send their children to if they
really must.

[Vera]

Slightly unrelated, but this girl in my school has Christian rock lyrics all over her locker door and beneath them there is a picture of her that says "Still in love with Jesus" and a picture of a golden fish in a pack of gray fish and under it it says: Different in just the right way.

This totally pisses me off. Christian rock lyrics? Dude, whatever. If you want to like crap music, go ahead. You love Jesus? Okay, I'm cool with that as well.

But different in just the right way? WTF BITCH, that is just like saying "I'm cooler than everyone else because I BELIEVE". What arrogant bullshit. As a person of no faith and no religion, I find that sort of offensive.

Despite all this (plus the other annoying true believers at our school who look at my friend funny, because she listens to metal music & wears black), I don't support the thing they're carrying out in France. Were I religious, I'd wish to carry some sort of sign of my faith with me, I'm sure. What's the use of having freedom of religion if you can't show "wear your religion", show others around you what your faith is?

And to Joy - I believe that many muslims believe their religion to be a very peaceful one. As for Koran, I have not read it, but if you haven't either, I'd suggest you wouldn't judge it. After all, people interpret the Bible in the most twisted ways, as well.

[Vera]

And as for religion classes, well, I think I might've said everything I had to say about that in an argument with Mota Boy not so long ago, but in summary, I think religion classes are a good thing. As long as they don't teach faith but rather, religion in itself. And other religions, as well.

I mean, they teach theology in universities, don't they?