Am I becoming a complete asshole?

[Paint_It_Black]

It got me thinking - why would this person, named God or whatever you may call him, even create the universe in the first place? For his own amusement? Or was it some sort of an expeiment of epic proportions? Or he has a master plan?

That would be unknowable. All of it. The only way to speculate is to assume that this creator is at least somewhat like us, which is what you did. That's fine as long as you accept that there is no reason to assume that any possible creator is anything like us at all. For one thing this entity would need to exist outside of our universe. Outside of all the laws of physics. Outside of space and time. You really shouldn't anthropomorphize this hypothetical being. When you do that you really illegitimize you own train of logic leading to your conclusion that there probably is no creator.

Evolution (the more sane Christians accept the evolution theory as a fact, even the pope does)

Except it's not a fact. It's a theory. It should not be accepted as a fact, because it isn't one. Then people usually say "yeah, like gravity is just a theory". Well, it is. Some highly regarded physicists are now suggesting that gravity doesn't exist and the effect we think of as gravity is actually some by-product of thermal dynamics. I don't understand this new idea. Almost nobody does. But I like that some scientists are willing to always re-evaluate everything we think we know. Thinking you know something is the greatest impediment to knowledge.

[_Lost_]

I've had a lot of really great religion conversations with people my own age. Most young Christians believe in "intelligent design" more than "god created man and all existence." While there are a plethora of people trying to force their ideals on you and turning a blind eye to all logic, I don't think this makes up much of the religious population. Some people need something to believe in. Scoff if you will, but belief that God has a plan and will keep you safe is what helps so many make it through hardship.

My family on my dad's side is religious, but not forcefully so. I was given the choice to not go to church at 9 so I stopped because it didn't work for me. I haven't heard a word about it since. Just knowing that people are praying for my dad and my family has helped my stepmom keep it together since my dad wrecked his motorcycle (it'll be a while, but he'll be alright). I don't think those prayers are helping him heal, but I think they give my stepmom strength that she wouldn't have otherwise.

Also, my only real beef with Islam is the separation of young men and women. Not even the treatment of women really upsets me as much because, should the separation stop, men would learn from women about how they should be better treated. As far as religions go, they are a pretty peaceful people.

I would've brought up the new theories about gravity, but PiB did it first. Its a real mindtrip though.

[mrconeman]

Firstly, awesome post Richard, I found myself nodding my head in agreement more so than I have at any post on this board in a very long time, however I'm pressed for time today, so I'm only going to reply to a few shorter things right now, but I'll be back...

I'm sorry in advance because I'm not going to really add anything to this conversation, but I've observed that of the five or six times I've heard someone with your viewpoint lately, they've always been Catholic and attended Catholic school. I don't want to read into it, as I don't know what it means, but I'm hoping someone else noticed this or can shed a bit of light on it.

It is an absolute possibility that I'm a product of my environment, here more so than alot of places on earth (Ireland has been ravaged by a Religious war for hundreds of years, and threads of it go on to this day) could very, very, very easily turn someone against the idea of organised Religion, I don't doubt at all, that this is a contributing factor to my beliefs. And while like Richard, I get absolutely infuriated at the thought that I was completely fooled as a child into believing the unbelievable, because it is so dispicably hidden in the school cirriculum along side Science, Language, and Maths, my belief has nothing to do with any rebellion caused by school authority, or I would have been classing myself as an Anti-theist years ago.

However, I still believe, if I was raised without any Religion, and was educated on it, with no past prejudice, I would still find the concept completely ludicrous. I don't see why the (albeit rather immature) point that believing in God is comparible to believing in the Easter Bunny or Peter Pan, or Batman, is so quickly disregarded, because it's completely true.

(wide open . . . )

somehow, i think the 'complete' part was accomplished a long time ago . . .

You belong in an insane asylum, you make neither heft nor point in this post.

So you don't want to debate religion, but you do want to talk about your intolerance of religion?

In a way, yes. I don't want to get into debates about peoples belief systems or why they think mine is wrong, like with the poster above this, considering the board, and most of it's useful members being gone, it's not like there would be any point anyway. I just wanted to highlight my growing intolerence, and my intolerence of my intolerence, and see if anyone is in the same position, which they seem to be. I'd be more than willing to discuss a Religious persons intolerence of Atheism. I just don't want to get into a classic Religious debate "YES HE DOES" "PROVE IT" "NO" "THEN HE DOESNT" "YES HE DOES" etc etc.

I think people are always quick to justify their dislike or religions or atheism based on 'I grew up here' or 'This is what I've experienced'. Which of course is fair enough, it's just you'd think that if you grew up in a heavily religious society, that you'd be able to discern some positive things from religion.

The fact that you view it entirely as harmful to society, I would suggest means that your view is heavily prejudiced or dogmatic. Because of course there are benefits to religion, and not being able to see them is..well prejudice.

That's not what I was doing, but it certaintly is a contributing factor, like I mentioned to Randy. I'm well aware Religion has good effects, both personally in single cases of people, and occasionally over a wide-spread issue. Alot of charities are Religiously based, alot of people do alot of good things with Religion as their inspiration, and I absolutely commend them for it.

The fact of the matter still boils down to them being good people, and their beliefs being that of a fucking nut job. That, and while not playing down Religions good effects, it in no way out-weights it's bad effects, and I think even any rational Religious person, handed a list of things Religion has to take responsibility for, good and bad, could not disagree.

Personally, no, I can see little to no benefits Religion has had on my society, you spent some time here once, right? What is good about literal, physical segregation between communities based on Religion, and even though alot of the people here, don't believe in a God, they've just been raised in a hateful society, and can't let go of their bigotry and hatred of 'the other side' which has been caused by Religious (and spawned into Political) differences.

But again, I'd really like to stress, that while it is obviously a big part of it, and possibly my main dislike for Christianity, it is *not* the overall cause of my complete disregard for all Religion. Which spawns from critical thinking, research, and discussions with overtly Religious people, which I can only liken to discussing with a wall.

[T-6005]

I agree with Per. I could go on and on listing the reasons why, but the general idea is that my main problem stems with the organization of Semitic religions rather than their substance.

It also seems like that's the problem with most of you guys, and you've spread your anger at doctrinal organization first to the belief system you were enclosed in, and then to ALL belief systems. It's entirely possible that there's nothing wrong with that - but I haven't seen you guys try to bring the smack down on Shinto.

Some religions have dangerous elements - no one is disputing that. In Malaysia raids happen under Sharia law to take Muslims from nightclubs and bars, in order that they might be 'properly reeducated.' In India the caste system (which debateably evolved concurrently with Hinduism rather than because of it) causes ongoing social problems to this day and is still a factor in political elections.

Oh, look at me. I've started. I guess I'll continue now.

There are good sides to religion. The ideals of the Good Samaritan are supposed to exist in nearly every modern religion. I find it hard to object to Jesus' ethical stances even if I shrug off the moral righteousness the Church has taken on. Confucianism (a quasi-religion in this instance) has the Ethic of Reciprocity, Buddhism has the first five precepts of Sila (which, from Wikipedia which is an unreliable source, is an action that is 'an intentional effort' to be charitable), while Baha'i is specifically devoted to embracing every religious prophet through time and emphasizing the unity of humankind.

These are important ideals - and good ones. Religion is not necessary to come to these conclusions, but are you really telling me that you are going to criticize them for espousing and emphasizing humaneness and compassion? It is near-universal.

Before you get high and mighty about what I've just said with me, please remember what I said - I am not religious, but my rejection of churches comes mostly from the unwieldy and contradictory conduct exhibited by Semitic organizations, rather than the ideals they make available to people. The examples I gave are but one part of doctrine - there are plenty of counters. These ideals, however, are what keep people going.

[For Real]

*yawns*

.......................

[Rooster]

That would be unknowable. All of it. The only way to speculate is to assume that this creator is at least somewhat like us, which is what you did. That's fine as long as you accept that there is no reason to assume that any possible creator is anything like us at all. For one thing this entity would need to exist outside of our universe. Outside of all the laws of physics. Outside of space and time. You really shouldn't anthropomorphize this hypothetical being. When you do that you really illegitimize you own train of logic leading to your conclusion that there probably is no creator.

True. I thought about it the way you described also, and if there really is something (again, IF) it would be much more likely for it to be like some kind of force or something, which just started it all and then let things go their own way. For now this can't be proven, but neither can it be disproven. I was referring more to the Christian God, or at least from the christian point of view. And the Bible teaches that God created us in his own image. You can take that statement in 2 different ways (either he created us to be similar to him, or he created us according to what we should be like in his opinion).

Except it's not a fact. It's a theory. It should not be accepted as a fact, because it isn't one. Then people usually say "yeah, like gravity is just a theory". Well, it is. Some highly regarded physicists are now suggesting that gravity doesn't exist and the effect we think of as gravity is actually some by-product of thermal dynamics. I don't understand this new idea. Almost nobody does. But I like that some scientists are willing to always re-evaluate everything we think we know. Thinking you know something is the greatest impediment to knowledge.

It is a theory. However, there are tons of evidences to support it, and it seems pretty logical to me. Viruses evolve, become immune to vaccines in pretty short time. This is just one example, and i gave it because it can be observed by humans. And besides, the former Pope did indeed declare evolution as a fact, which is what i was referring to.

Now, about gravity... well, that's just too much. I mean, it could be true, but i'm gonna wait a bit longer for some solid proofs, or at least until somebody finds an explanation which wouldn't require being a physics expert in order to understand it.

[WebDudette]

These posts are all so long. I'll read them as soon as I wake up.

[Free?]

You guys are awesome... just, uh, unoriginal.

[on topic] Religion can be good or bad. Depends. Hate it? Sure you will if you had bad experience with it. Love it? Sure, why not, if it makes your life easier/enjoyable/better etc.[/on topic]

You all knew basically everything others posted here all along. For real. And if I had to elaborate on the subject, I'd do it the same way as you guys. That's what bores me.

Would "dead horse fucking" tag be too harsh/inappropriate?

[The Talking Pie]

But getting together to share common thoughts and beliefs that you only really want reinforced (rather than discussed) is awesome!

Oh, wait...

Though I suppose perhaps that was the original point of this thread.

Should a/anti-theism be considered a religion? We have morals and codes of conduct, a firm belief about God and can't possibly accept that those who differ in that belief aren't complete fucking fruitnuts. Some may even be driven to murder in the name of their beliefs (there's only so much unsolicited salvation of oneself that some people can take...).

[WebDudette]

You guys are awesome... just, uh, unoriginal.

[on topic] Religion can be good or bad. Depends. Hate it? Sure you will if you had bad experience with it. Love it? Sure, why not, if it makes your life easier/enjoyable/better etc.[/on topic]

You all knew basically everything others posted here all along. For real. And if I had to elaborate on the subject, I'd do it the same way as you guys. That's what bores me.

Would "dead horse fucking" tag be too harsh/inappropriate?

I'm not convinced you are paying attention. There are certainly differing opinions in this thread. Besides, what does it matter if it is something has been discussed or if it is original or not? We're sharing our opinions on a common subject. This whole fucking forum is dedicated to talking about how awesome the Offspring are and discussing the same shit over and over again.

If you don't talk about common interests and express opinions, there would be no reason for friends.