Am I becoming a complete asshole?

[Llamas]

That's why I asked, because agnosticism is such a broad term. I don't think people realize that most, if not all, prominent atheists are agnostic atheists. Very few atheists will claim to KNOW for certain that there is no higher power. Richard Dawkins has a video where he describes the 7 levels of atheism, claiming that he himself is a 6:

According to that list, I'm a 3.

The thing about it though, is even if you did think there was a higher power, how could you possibly pick just one?

Right, which is why I said god or gods/deity or deities. I don't think I know anything about this potential higher power.

One thing I forgot to mention. I think I would be far less bothered by religious people if they knew what their religion was and what it has caused. If they were all aware of what was currently happening and knew what there religion was based on. Basically, I'd be a lot more willing to listen to people talk about their religion if they had spent some time learning about it, understanding it, and if they knew half as much about it as I do.

It baffles me when a Christian cites the Ottoman Empire and Armenian genocide as a huge example of why Islam is horrid. They say, Muslims push for a pan-Islamic state (well not that they know that's the term for it...)... Christians are peaceful. When I mention the much more recent genocide in Serbia by Catholics AGAINST Muslims... they clearly have no idea that was a religious genocide done by Christians, and then they say "well that was a long time ago". Fucking fuck.

I also used to get so irate with bible thumpers when I worked at a restaurant. Idiots who would throw their bible pamphlets at me and tell me I need to be saved. I used to actually look at the pamphlets until I got frustrated and offended by how basic they were. It was seriously an insult. Every educated American understands the basics of Christianity. And these people shove it at us like we're fucking idiots. And I'm usually too pissed to take the time to explain that I fucking GET it. Jesus died for my sins. I have to ask for forgiveness. We are all flawed and the only way to salvation is through God's son. Yes. Shut up and go away.

[WebDudette]

I didn't exactly think you were religious, just that you hold the belief that all atheists are the same. I was pointing out that people saying things like 'oh, all atheists are arrogant, moral less, and dogmatic' is the same thing as me saying 'all Christians are gay hating bigots and liars.' While what you said reminded me to bring this up, and I feel is kind of connected to my point, I should have clarified.

If there were a section that could be interpreted as me saying you're theistic, it'd be this one.

It may not be the same where you live, or maybe you don't notice it because you are religious.

All of your posts in this thread seem to be in the same vain that this is a worthless discussion, the part about being offended was only partially addressed to you, and partially addressed to other people who have posted in this thread and said literally nothing.

I wasn't calling anyone here a dick, that last part wasn't directed at you at all. I've just met people in real life who talk about how they are atheist or agnostic for the sole purpose of getting into flame war-esque arguments.

[WebDudette]

Right, which is why I said god or gods/deity or deities. I don't think I know anything about this potential higher power.

I didn't mean you, in particular. Just that I find it ridiculous that anyone can pick Christianity (or a specific sect), Islam, or Zoroastrianism and claim that they are the ones on the right path when there have been thousands of religions throughout the years. In fact, if someone wants to say they believe in a higher power that had some responsibility in creating the Universe, I'm okay with that, I don't believe it, but I don't rule it out either.

They make an application that will look at what you have typed up and tell you if it is condescending or not, I should look into that. A lot of the time I just have a tone and a way of speaking that makes it sound like I am trying to be condescending when in reality, I am trying to imply the complete opposite.

[sKratch]

I have just looked through here like 4 times and can't find who left the link for that 4 person debate on the Catholic church. What the fuck why can't I find the link? But anyways, thank you, that was quite insightful and I enjoyed watching it.

[WebDudette]

I posted it, I'm glad you liked it. I wasn't sure if anyone would watch it because it's actually pretty long. You probably can't find it because of the way the forum colors links you've already clicked. It makes them a gray color that is hardly distinguishable from the regular text.

[Harleyquiiinn]

I didn't go to a religious school or anything. I am angry because of shit like the Mormon Church spending millions of dollars too bank roll Prop. 8 and outlaw gay marriage.

Yes but that's not religion. It's extremism based on the Bible.

Doesn't Hammurabi's code predate any Egyptian religion? That may not be true, but I think it it.

First, that's Babylonian
Second, this code, as the Roman code, describes the rules of civil life (categories of society, criminal laws). Nothing abstract and general about the status of the Human being.
Third, it is not a religious code but it was written, originally, because of religion. And it's the same thing for Roman Law.

See, nowadays we have the State, the 3 powers, a process of regulation, that makes us able to accept a new law as ours.

Now go back to the Babylonians, Romans, etc. The entire society was built under a leader chosen by God/Gods/Divinities.

So when Hammurabi comes in and says "Hey, so... I wrote that thing yesterday saying you must not kill your wife, so now... you must not kill your wife", it works only because people think the guy is a leader because God/Gods/Divinities decided he was a leader.

I'm not saying it wouldn't have been written without religion, or that it was inspired by a sort of god, I'm just saying that religion greatly helped.

So anyway, when the Bible comes in and says: "Hey, you must not kill the person next to you cause that's bad and you'll go to hell" it also means that a human life worths any other life => Concept of equality => Human rights. That's why I said the Bible, IMO, was one of the first texts having an abstract notion of human rights. And that's pretty cool. I don't care if Jesus existed or not.

[WebDudette]

Yes but that's not religion. It's extremism based on the Bible.

Err... anyway you look at it, it is churches dictating the way others live based on their religious beliefs. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say. What do you mean 'it's not religion, it's extremism based on the Bible?' Everything about religion is based on the Bible.

I did know it was Babylon, but I also thought that they shared an Egyptian like religion. To be honest though, this is all from a Humanities class I took about a year ago and I was asleep most of the time.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jesus existed and was a really cool guy. But I expect if he came to earth today, he'd be disappointed in a lot of Christians.

[ad8]

What do you mean 'it's not religion, it's extremism based on the Bible?' Everything about religion is based on the Bible.

But not everything based on the bible is extremist.

I think one thing that needs to be said here is that there ARE christians who believe in god but still don't molest children or rant about gay people. People who interpret their religion in a good way are those who vindicate the existence of religion in my opinion.

There may be millions of extremist idiots, but it is not religions fault that they are idiots. The fault of religion is that they are (religious) extremists. If their religion should instantly vanish I am sure they would search something new to hold dear and furiously defend.

Where I live there are many christians who are not as strict and extremist about their religion as the Mormons you mentioned and even though I don't think that they should believe in an actual existing god I do not want to change their beliefs because everyone is entitled to have their own.

We have a pretty nice example here in Germany. There is much left- and right-wing extremism here and I dare to say that it is not the fault of national socialism or communism but rather the fact of people being angry and less intelligent and needing something to believe in. Of course I hereby do not condone national socialism and communism or autonomists but I think that this was a good example.

[Free?]

I didn't exactly think you were religious, just that you hold the belief that all atheists are the same. I was pointing out that people saying things like 'oh, all atheists are arrogant, moral less, and dogmatic' is the same thing as me saying 'all Christians are gay hating bigots and liars.' While what you said reminded me to bring this up, and I feel is kind of connected to my point, I should have clarified.

But I didn't say anything like that. Was it my response to nieh's comic that made you think I was bashing atheists like that?
If yes, then I took the comic as if nieh was trying to point out that I came here, a place of religion debates, criticizing it, which may have made me look like I feel superior to everyone here for the most part, and like a general intolerance to ignorant folks who think like it's written in that picture. So I responded accordingly to this most likely wrong interpretation.
If no, then I'm out of ideas where that came from.

Btw, I genuinely don't accept generalizations, especially things like saying "all the theists/atheists/whatever group of people are the same".

If there were a section that could be interpreted as me saying you're theistic, it'd be this one.

Strictly speaking, yes. But it's confusing to figure out where by saying "you" you mean myself and where it is just a form of generally speaking. Here's the whole thing which was under my quote:

For you to make sweeping generalizations about atheists and assume that they are all militant atheists who only concern is to convert you and shove it down your throat is just as bad as me assuming every religious person is just like Fred Phelps. Also, I think one of us missed the point of the comic.

Following that, I understand new atheism and adamant atheism. It may not be the same where you live, or maybe you don't notice it because you are religious. But a lot of it has to do with being defensive and fighting to keep religion out of our lives.

Anyway Free?, feel free to reply and talk about how stagnant and repetitive the conversation is, repeating yourself for the 4th time. I think it has more to do with you being offended by the thread than really caring about repetition.

Besides, it's been a month or so since the last religion thread, and this isn't exactly the same thing. Believe it or not, I am very interested in religious discussions and peoples opinion on this subject, as long as it doesn't become a flame war.

For the record, I have argued devil's advocate against agnostics and atheists who just want to be dicks. It's not only religious people that piss me off. Like I said earlier, I judge people from a person to person basis, everyone can be an asshole.

All of your posts in this thread seem to be in the same vain that this is a worthless discussion, the part about being offended was only partially addressed to you, and partially addressed to other people who have posted in this thread and said literally nothing.

So, if you didn't really think I was religious, why would I feel offended by this thread? Alongside with who? For Real and Budzy? Seriously?
Sadly, truly sadly, it looks like a blind stab attempt to pick on me, and if you would've guessed correct about me being religious, and I wouldn't be as lenient as I am, you'd had a one single theist to fight with in a thread full of people who aren't acceptable to religions.

I wasn't calling anyone here a dick, that last part wasn't directed at you at all.

I didn't say that either, nor I took it personally.

I've just met people in real life who talk about how they are atheist or agnostic for the sole purpose of getting into flame war-esque arguments.

Again, the last part is where I'm with you.

P.S.: Playing devil's advocate can make things more interesting, find out weak spots and show how good the whole point is indeed, that's the good side, the bad side is when the devil's advocate starts losing shrewdness and precision and starts acting aggressively (even if in a subtle, not in-your-face, manner) without any reason or solid support of his points.

That being said, I thank you for making this thread more interesting to me, I honestly do. I guess mentioning that no hard feelings were involved from my side wouldn't hurt as well. Oh, and I am rrreeallly sorry if I missed anything or said anything wrong because of that.

[Harleyquiiinn]

Ad8 more or less answered to your question for me, Pilze

It's easy to be homophobic and claim it's because of your religion when really, it's because you're intolerant. And not fair to, I think, most religious people who aren't.

Also, it's easy to send planes into a tower and claim it's because Allah told you to do so when really, you just hate americans. And not fair to most muslims who live their religion peacefully.

That's what I call extremism based on religious texts, but that has little to do with religion.

On the same note, the "good things" that I said happened because of religion happened because of admirable people, who maybe used religion as a way to convince people of their ideas and creations.