Islam or Christianity

[Llamas]

I've noticed a tendency for liberal atheist/agnostics (of which I am one) to rip on Christianity while defending Islam. I'm not saying anyone on this bbs does it (though some of us did in the past), but I see it all the time. Like you see people who call Islam "the religion of peace", but attack Christianity with everything they've got. I think I used to carry some of these feelings myself; Christians upset me, while Muslims were totally cool. Now I've come to a point where I really don't like either. All extremists aside, they're both just kinda crappy in terms of what they preach and how they should behave. I'll defend religious freedom whenever possible, but both religions look down on women and treat non-believers like crap.

Anyone else notice this? Thoughts?

[WebDudette]

I'm not a fan of the Islamic religion, but it does not have the direct effect on my life that Christianity does. It has always been pretty obvious why American atheists talk about Christianity more than Islam, some people act like it's hypocritical or wrong, I don't see the problem.

From a completely objective standpoint, I'm not sure which I disagree with more. I'll go into some more detail and figure it out after I get some sleep.

[Baldwin]

They're both nice religions, with some really cuntish denominations ruining their image. Islam generally has bigger cunts speaking for it, but that's only because they're from generally shittier countries, and their fundamentalists keep getting given guns by outside powers. Most Western nations are majority Christian and treat women fine, and the Afghanis were treating their women awesomely until America made best buddies with the Taliban.

If you're going to let the Wahhabi and Southern Baptists speak for their entire religions, of course you're not going to like what you see. And also, you're being an asshole.

Personally, I don't believe in religious freedom to the point where people are allowed to join psychopathic cults. If the Wahhabi, the Westboro Baptists, the FLDS, the Scientologists and other assorted cults and hatredmongers got shot on sight like they were Al Quadas, I'd be pretty much okay with that.

[killer_queen]

Rejecting the popular opinion is always tempting. It's the same in everywhere around the world. Here for example, (somewhat) educated people think religious extremist people only come from Islamic societies while other religions have absolutely no crazy followers and have the upmost respect for women.

And while comparing religions is impossible I don't mind doing it for the followers. Both Islam and Christianity have fucked up followers you have to admit that Muslims come from really terrible countries. So it's not hard to take a side when you compare an extremist person from a country where people are free to say anything they want and have at least decent education for free and knowledge is easily accessible, to another extremist from a place where books and websites are banned, thinking differently is punished and you know the rest. I think what I'm trying to say is Muslims are better.

[KickHimWhenHe'sDown]

I'm exposed to Islam infrequently so it doesn't really bother me too much. Something that annoys me are the "burn the Koran" Christians, or all the people who determine the Islamic culture as the sole source of terrorism in this world. There are American terrorists like the people that burn down labs.

I do feel that Christianity gets bashed on the most in North America, but that's probably because Islam isn't very common. More and more there seems to be a general hatred towards Christianity in society. It doesn't really bother me that much anymore. I've become so used to it that I was incredibly surprised to find a (pretty much) fair minded discussion on the issue.

[Static_Martyr]

I've noticed this trend, as well. Liberal-leaning folks tend to be a lot more supportive of Islam (in all its forms) than of Christianity; for example, they tend to want me to make the "extremist vs. moderate" distinction for Islam, but not for Christianity. And I've had people get so angry with me --- for merely saying that Islam should be subject to the same level (not more, not less, but the same level) of criticism that we direct towards Christianity --- that they refuse to speak to me about it any more.

I find this tendency more than a little frustrating; I can hold an intelligent discussion with this sort of person about what, exactly, we find wrong with Christianity, but the minute the conversation turns towards Islam, I'm suddenly this "conservative bigot" for comparing Islam to Christianity with regard to some of its specific tenets (amazing how one topic can change me from being a "tree-hugging lib" to a "bigot conservative"). If you disagree with my comparisons, that's fine, but I'm surprised by how many (non-Muslim) people seem suddenly unwilling to continue a reasonable discussion about something once I criticize Islam. And it's not even Muslim people that I'm criticizing, it's Islam itself --- the religion.

Another problem I've noticed is how any criticism of Islam is automatically associated with "racism" against Arabs. I've criticized some of Islam's specific religious tenets before (such as how they treat women, complete with Quran quotations to support my criticisms), never once referring to Arabs or Arabic/middle-eastern culture apart from Islam, and yet I've been immediately dismissed from the discussion as a "racist" or a "bigot." And once I made the comment that I don't believe Islam should be magically exempt from any criticism on the grounds that "criticizing Islam is racist," and I was similarly dismissed. It's really interesting, how the American left is so willing to go above and beyond the normal to defend Islam where they won't defend Christianity.

Don't get me wrong, I find them both abhorrent and I criticize them both regularly (and I'm probably guilty of ranking on Christianity moreso than on Islam, even if for no other reason than because I deal with it more regularly than Islam). But this attitude is even prevalent among the atheist community, which (in most other cases) prides themselves about being "more reasonable" or "more rational" than everyone else. And yet, they suddenly become incapable of even *trying* to provide a reasonable basis to defend Islam when it is criticized, instead opting to call its critics "racist" off the bat. It's a discussion-stopper, and an annoying one at that.

[/rant]
[inb4 "lol u racist!]

[Llamas]

I've noticed this trend, as well. Liberal-leaning folks tend to be a lot more supportive of Islam (in all its forms) than of Christianity; for example, they tend to want me to make the "extremist vs. moderate" distinction for Islam, but not for Christianity. And I've had people get so angry with me --- for merely saying that Islam should be subject to the same level (not more, not less, but the same level) of criticism that we direct towards Christianity --- that they refuse to speak to me about it any more.

I find this tendency more than a little frustrating; I can hold an intelligent discussion with this sort of person about what, exactly, we find wrong with Christianity, but the minute the conversation turns towards Islam, I'm suddenly this "conservative bigot" for comparing Islam to Christianity with regard to some of its specific tenets (amazing how one topic can change me from being a "tree-hugging lib" to a "bigot conservative"). If you disagree with my comparisons, that's fine, but I'm surprised by how many (non-Muslim) people seem suddenly unwilling to continue a reasonable discussion about something once I criticize Islam. And it's not even Muslim people that I'm criticizing, it's Islam itself --- the religion.

Another problem I've noticed is how any criticism of Islam is automatically associated with "racism" against Arabs. I've criticized some of Islam's specific religious tenets before (such as how they treat women, complete with Quran quotations to support my criticisms), never once referring to Arabs or Arabic/middle-eastern culture apart from Islam, and yet I've been immediately dismissed from the discussion as a "racist" or a "bigot." And once I made the comment that I don't believe Islam should be magically exempt from any criticism on the grounds that "criticizing Islam is racist," and I was similarly dismissed. It's really interesting, how the American left is so willing to go above and beyond the normal to defend Islam where they won't defend Christianity.

Don't get me wrong, I find them both abhorrent and I criticize them both regularly (and I'm probably guilty of ranking on Christianity moreso than on Islam, even if for no other reason than because I deal with it more regularly than Islam). But this attitude is even prevalent among the atheist community, which (in most other cases) prides themselves about being "more reasonable" or "more rational" than everyone else. And yet, they suddenly become incapable of even *trying* to provide a reasonable basis to defend Islam when it is criticized, instead opting to call its critics "racist" off the bat. It's a discussion-stopper, and an annoying one at that.

[/rant]
[inb4 "lol u racist!]

This is pretty much it exactly. Especially your point about racism. Dear god, that response bothers me more than any, 1) because not all Muslims are middle eastern (hello, Bosnia?), and 2) you say: "I have a problem with a religion that happens to be followed primarily by people from the Middle East" you mean: "I have a problem with sand niggers" = a pretty ginormous and disgusting leap for people to assume.

And in general, I agree with your entire post.

[mrconeman]

I'm about the same as static up there. I deal with Christians a hell of a lot more regularly than I deal with Muslims, we just don't have the population here.

I can honestly say though, that of all of my Liberal, Agnostic, Atheist etcetc friends here, none of them give Islam a pass, and it gets treated the same way they treat all Religions. In fact, it probably gets a lot more criticism for the way it treats women, not that true Christianity is actually better at that. I honestly don't know how any woman is Religious, without having it beaten into her of course. They might have a lot of Political sympathies for the countries in which Islam is a lot more popular, but that's for the well being, and living standard of the people themselves, not so much their insane beliefs.

Still, all of the different versions of falsities should be treated with equal amounts of ridicule, criticism, and disdain.

[samseby]

Neither.

I'm all for religious freedom too and I wish not almost every religion would claim to be the one and only true religion ... cause there is no such thing. I wish there would be more respect and acceptance for those believing in something / someone else or in nothing at all, but that's not gonna happen anyway ...

[Llamas]

Neither.

I'm all for religious freedom too and I wish not almost every religion would claim to be the one and only true religion ... cause there is no such thing. I wish there would be more respect and acceptance for those believing in something / someone else or in nothing at all, but that's not gonna happen anyway ...

lol. Someone read the title of this thread as a question, and didn't bother to read a single post in the thread.