Islam or Christianity

[T-6005]

Throughout the entire world, there are no well-off Muslim nations... and Muslims receive little to no privilege throughout successful society.

Yeah, because fuck Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE (though I guess I'd give you the UAE if you insisted on 'Muslim nations').

Now, while I agree with the point that the article you linked makes, it is an overwhelmingly domestic reality, and not one that necessarily lends itself to the kind of extrapolations you've made.

[Llamas]

Yeah, because fuck Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE (though I guess I'd give you the UAE if you insisted on 'Muslim nations').

You consider those countries to be well-off and privileged? Really? They're all considered developing countries. Low GDPs, not great life expectancy, poor education standards, poor standard of living, etc. None of those countries ever show up in the top 20 or even 30 countries for these things. I guess Qatar and Bahrain aren't as bad, but these are definitely not progressed, first world countries full of privilege.

And of course we're talking about the US and Europe here. I'm not talking about the entire world in this thread, because I don't live there. This thread was originally about liberal atheists (as in, those of Western society...) defending Muslims while ripping on Christians. However, Christian civilization has a long history of keeping others down. When was the last time a Muslim nation was the most powerful in the world? When was the last time a Muslim empire had steady control of a rich, successful region? A hundred years? The current world empowers Christian nations more than others.

[T-6005]

They're all considered developing countries. Low GDPs, not great life expectancy, poor education standards, poor standard of living, etc. None of those countries ever show up in the top 20 or even 30 countries for these things. I guess Qatar and Bahrain aren't as bad, but these are definitely not progressed, first world countries full of privilege.

Yes well that's just clearly wrong, particularly if you get a more stringent methods of GDP checking, like GDP per capita. Income disparity in most of these countries is lower than in the United States. In terms of 'quality of life', hard as that is to measure, you'll note 2 of the countries I mentioned in the top 30 here, and most of the others falling outside it not in GDP or quality of life, but in political environment and education.

Now while I'll gladly concede that education should be a prime concern (and is, in the Middle East), looking at just the quality of life and GDPPP, as well as income inequality, it looks to be about average for developed nations.

And of course let's not even go into how things like "political environment" are based on a Western-centric statute of political value. Though it's not one I feel is specifically wrong, it clearly plays a part.

And of course we're talking about the US and Europe here. I'm not talking about the entire world in this thread, because I don't live there. This thread was originally about liberal atheists (as in, those of Western society...) defending Muslims while ripping on Christians. However, Christian civilization has a long history of keeping others down. When was the last time a Muslim nation was the most powerful in the world? When was the last time a Muslim empire had steady control of a rich, successful region? A hundred years? The current world empowers Christian nations more than others.

Every society has a history of keeping others down, though. Particularly empires.

As for the last time a Muslim Empire had steady control of a rich, successful region, I'd say you're a bit optimistic with 100 years. Probably closer to two hundred before the Ottoman Empire began to really feel the pressure.

Even so, I'm not following your logic there. Empires aren't things which last decades. They have a tendency to last centuries. And while we have the American superpower right now, debateably in decline, considering the level of coherence and development reached by 'Muslim' nations, we're dealing with apples and oranges. The Ottoman Empire wouldn't have given two shits about letting Egypt go for free in exchange for just one of the nukes Pakistan has.

In any case, I'm getting far afield. I don't disagree with you on some points. The Middle East is dependent on resource economies, so their political and productive potentials are stifled by the very scarcity of the resources off of which they build their wealth. That the Euro-American global Hegemony has traces of Christianity in its version of 'Western secular democratic thought' is also not something I would dispute. I just object to the portrayal of 'the Muslim world' (particularly the resource economies) as developing countries.