This morning, I am asking myself questions

[prettyflyforablackchick]

Exactly. In common usage a "homophobe" is anyone who believes homosexuality is somehow intrinsically wrong. I don't believe that all homophobes hate homosexuals though. They hate homosexuality, but not necessarily the actual homosexual person. I think this can be an important distinction, particularly when deciding whether it's worth trying to reason with them.

Someone said something along the lines of, "Homophobia is the fear [among men] that a man will treat you the way you treat women," and it really stuck with me. I don't necessarily think it's always that simple, especially since homophobes are not exclusively male, but I do believe it's a factor.

I absolutely love everything about this post. If you're ever desperately seeking someone to have a civil union with give me a call.

Aw, you're too kind (and I'm too spoken for :P)

edit: Not trying to backseat-mod, especially since I'm super new here, but doesn't it seem like a thread of this nature ought to be in the Politics forum?

[Selena74]

People who are against gay marriage are bigots.

Sometimes they're very polite about the way they present their views, but bigotry is still bigotry, even if its got a smiling face.

"I'm not a racist, I just don't want that black man drinking from MY water-fountain and riding MY public bus".

Amen!!! I totally agree!! I grew up in a really religious family. For years I had it pounded in my head that the lifestyle is wrong. It wasn't until many years ago when I got out on my own and started working in a hair salon when I finally changed my views. I met so many wonderful gay folks that I'm still good friends with to this day. They deserve the same treatment you or I get. This should never be a political issue, it's a human rights issue. Now that said, I am not knocking on religion. The Lord is still a huge part of who I am. But you have to have balance. You can't have someone else (or anything) dictate what you are to believe in.

[Harleyquiiinn]

Amen!!! I totally agree!! I grew up in a really religious family. For years I had it pounded in my head that the lifestyle is wrong. It wasn't until many years ago when I got out on my own and started working in a hair salon when I finally changed my views. I met so many wonderful gay folks that I'm still good friends with to this day. They deserve the same treatment you or I get. This should never be a political issue, it's a human rights issue. Now that said, I am not knocking on religion. The Lord is still a huge part of who I am. But you have to have balance. You can't have someone else (or anything) dictate what you are to believe in.

Yes but see, this is exactly my point.

In France, as in many countries, civil union is open to everyone and creates the same rights as marriage (more or less, a few differences).

These people are not against that civil union (although most of them were probably against it when it was voted) or against gay people having the same rights. They are against the use of the institution of marriage.

As Jacknife said, bigotry it is. But homophobia ? I think it might be a shortcut to think that all these people are homophobic. There is no doubt that some of them are though, maybe in an important proportion.

On a side not, I cannot resist to show you a video of the said event because... well... you'll see... :




Edit : And now, I'm waiting for someone to post the Ultra Gay Seal...

[Selena74]

Yes but see, this is exactly my point.

In France, as in many countries, civil union is open to everyone and creates the same rights as marriage (more or less, a few differences).

These people are not against that civil union (although most of them were probably against it when it was voted) or against gay people having the same rights. They are against the use of the institution of marriage.

As Jacknife said, bigotry it is. But homophobia ? I think it might be a shortcut to think that all these people are homophobic. There is no doubt that some of them are though, maybe in an important proportion.

On a side not, I cannot resist to show you a video of the said event because... well... you'll see... :





Edit : And now, I'm waiting for someone to post the Ultra Gay Seal...

Wow! What a video!! Holy moly!!

I get what you mean though. I knew a lot of people from church when I was younger who I honestly felt were scared of gay people. I honestly don't know why, but it was strange.

[Llamas]

Llamas, homophobia is only a fear of gays in the literal "phobos-means-fear" sense. Homophobia is a hatred of gays. I have literally never in my life heard an argument against gay marriage that wasn't based in hate.

Of course I know what homophobia means I just think it's a dumb word. It was invented like 40 years ago, and rather lazily - they slapped a Greek prefix for "same" onto a Greek suffix for "fear"... fear of the same. It's simply a dumb word, and as it was only invented 40 years ago, I protest its use :P But I haven't come up with a great alternative to it, so I was mostly just making fun of what a dumb word it is.

I really could not have said it better myself! It disturbs me especially to hear black people talk about how gays should have limited/no marriage rights -- it's like we've forgotten that we have also been dehumanized and marginalized along the same lines and for the same (flimsy, non-existent) reasons. Really shocking that in this day and age, we're still overly concerned with what "marriage" means (in a supposedly secular nation) and whether or not two people who love each other (or don't -- loveless hetero marriages happen every day, but no one seems too concerned about them) should have the right to create an eternal (or not-so-eternal!) bond between them, to share their wealth and resources, to visit each other in the hospital, and so on.

If it were up to me, ALL marriages, same-sex, genderless, and otherwise, would be called civil unions. These civil unions would grant the exact same rights and benefits as marriage. Then if you wanted to get traditionally "married," you could go to a church and have a ceremony. That church ceremony would grant you absolutely no rights whatsoever, but it would be fun...if you and your friends like that sort of thing.

edit: Seriously, polite arguments against gay marriage make me feel slightly ill. I would almost rather someone just yell about how they hate f*****ts and d**es than hear "Oh, I have no problem with gays, I just think that their lives should be arbitrarily restricted because THE BIBLE" or some such nonsense.

I agree with this 100%. Seriously, where did this new girl come from and how is she so awesome??

And yes, asshole bigots are far preferred to the ones who put on a smile and pretend they're loving, good people. I'll take some idiot calling me a faggot any day over someone smiling and telling me they "love the sinner, but hate the sin" and that Jesus can save me from hell.

"Homophobia is the fear [among men] that a man will treat you the way you treat women,"

This is absolutely true for most homophobic men. Most of them have no problem with gay WOMEN - it's the MEN they have a problem with. It's why us gay women get so much less hate directed toward us than gay men.

[Godxilla]

And yet the Republicans are wasting everyone's time and money, trying to pass these stupid amendments to redefine marriage in the constitution...

Did I ever say that I am Republican? Goodness no. I'm a Libertarian in case you forgot.

This is absolutely true for most homophobic men. Most of them have no problem with gay WOMEN - it's the MEN they have a problem with. It's why us gay women get so much less hate directed toward us than gay men.

Ha ha ha. That's because men would rather f a gay girl than a gay guy. Make sense? You'll get less hate, because they *think* they'll be able to cash in on that niceness later. Make sense?

[Llamas]

Did I ever say that I am Republican? Goodness no. I'm a Libertarian in case you forgot.

Yet you support a Republican candidate.

Ha ha ha. That's because men would rather f a gay girl than a gay guy. Make sense? You'll get less hate, because they *think* they'll be able to cash in on that niceness later. Make sense?

So what you're admitting here is that homophobic men are incredibly, ridiculously stupid?

Pro tip for homophobes: bi and gay girls are more likely to be repulsed by a man who is cool with gay women but hate gay men... than she is by a guy who's just all-around anti-gay.

[Harleyquiiinn]

This is absolutely true for most homophobic men. Most of them have no problem with gay WOMEN - it's the MEN they have a problem with. It's why us gay women get so much less hate directed toward us than gay men.

I absolutely disagree with this.

Men have no problems with women being gay, as long as they are gay FOR THEM. They like to see two girls kissing and having sex while looking at the camera with eyes thay say "you know, for real, I'd also love your cock".

But real lesbians ?

I noticed several times, talking to people around me that even for people scared of homosexuality, or who have a slight problem with it, there is a kind of acceptance when it is 2 men (I am not talking true homophobic assholes here... just... common men), like "whatever dude, as long as they don't try to get my ass".

But 2 girls ? Like if you get seriously into it ? They think a girl can never be a true homosexual. It's like "Oh... yeah... I like lesbians" *wink* *wink*

For most men, lesbian means "another kind of sexual object that tries to get attention of men by having sex with other women". Or in other cases, "women who couldn't find a man". It very very rarely means "woman who loves other women."

In societey, women are still seen as being meant to have sex with men and conceive children. They get less hate because it is more discrete. But it is there.

In that way, I feel like homosexuality is far less accepted for women than for men.

[Paint_It_Black]

Yes but see, this is exactly my point.

In France, as in many countries, civil union is open to everyone and creates the same rights as marriage (more or less, a few differences).

These people are not against that civil union (although most of them were probably against it when it was voted) or against gay people having the same rights. They are against the use of the institution of marriage.

Ah, well, having now properly grasped your question I would say those people are not necessarily homophobic at all. They want to maintain their religious tradition of marriage and in their tradition that means one man and one woman. As long as LEGALLY anyone can enter in to a civil union and receive the same rights that's just fine and dandy. Though the term "marriage" should have any legal significance removed and be entirely religious/ceremonial/relevant only to morons. I pretty much expect that's what will eventually happen in the western world. This is more or less what you're thinking, right?

Didn't watch the video, just in case that matters.

[Harleyquiiinn]

Believe me, it is a great video.