Lousy hippies fight for the right to walk around nude

["Melyssa K" Kennedy]

I didn't get my info from Wiki, so I am unsure why you keep insisting I did. I wasn't actually asking for info about frogs, it was an example.

I am not insisting you used wiki, but I was under the impression that you did. There's a difference there. When I first mentioned it, you didn't deny using wiki and you actually defended it, stating why it can be credible. Given those events, anybody would have thought you used it.


"As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting." That sounded like you wanted to discus it. You can't fault me for that.

By the way, when you called my encyclopedic brain self-proclaimed, it's also friend-supported, professor-approved.

[WebDudette]

I am not insisting you used wiki, but I was under the impression that you did. There's a difference there. When I first mentioned it, you didn't deny using wiki and you actually defended it, stating why it can be credible. Given those events, anybody would have thought you used it.

Wikiepedia has all relevant sources at the bottom of the page, it's not nearly as terrible as a lot of people seem to think. You're right though, I didn't deny it, and in fact found one study through the wiki article on ptosis, but that in no way discredits the source. I wouldn't use wikipedia on an academic paper, but there's nothing with finding sources through it.

"As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting." That sounded like you wanted to discus it. You can't fault me for that.

That wasn't all I said though, I thought I had made it apparent that I was making a connection between the two situations.

As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting. Imagine I hadn't though, and you just came back and said 'I don't actually have any evidence or an explanation, but I used to have a frog and I've seen a couple on tv, I just know that's how it works'.)

Sources:

Eleven adult female subjects aged 22-39 years wore a certain brassière for 3 months while anthropometry and moiré fringe photographs on the anterior trunk were taken regularly once a week. After the 3 months, the brassière was not worn for another 3 months. Then the measurements and photogrammetry were repeated for comparison using superimposed moiré configurations. The results are summarized as follows. Regardless of slim or obese trunk, subjects with pendent breasts showed the highest degree of breast form "correction" from wearing the brassière. In all subjects, after 3 months of brassière constraint, the underbust circumference was smaller but the chest circumference became enlarged, the distance between the right and left nipples became wider, and the breasts tended to hang down. This change was more marked in obese subjects with pendent breasts. And when this type of subject wore a "well-fitted" brassière for a long time, her breast form became developed; that is, her breasts hung down more.

Breast ptosis is one of the most common conditions treated by plastic surgeons, but the causes are not clearly defined. A review was conducted of 132 consecutive patients presenting for breast augmentation or mastopexy. Information was obtained by chart review and telephone interview. Standardized photographs were examined to determine degree of ptosis by the Regnault classification. Of patients who had at least one pregnancy, 85% reported adverse changes in breast shape following pregnancy, 35% reported a reduction in breast size, and 30% reported an increase in size. Upon logistic regression, age, history of significant (>50 lbs) weight loss, higher body mass index, larger bra cup size, number of pregnancies, and smoking history were found to be significant risk factors for breast ptosis (P < 0.05). History of breast-feeding, weight gain during pregnancy, and lack of participation in regular upper body exercise were not found to be significant risk factors for ptosis.

Women have nothing to fear from increased sagging in their breasts if they ditch their bra - as gravity will still get them in the end. ''Bras don't prevent breasts from sagging,'' said Professor Mansell. ''With regard to stretching of the breast ligaments and drooping in later life, that occurs very regularly anyway, and that's a function of the weight, often of heavy breasts, and these women are wearing bras and it doesn't prevent it.''

Even the chief executive of the bra manufacturers, Playtex, John Dixey, agrees. ''We have no medical evidence that wearing a bra could prevent sagging, because the breast itself is not muscle so keeping it toned up is an impossibility. What it can do, particularly for larger-breasted women, is provide comfort and support.'' But clearly, as the study showed, not comfort for everyone.

Does Wearing a Bra Prevent Sagging Breasts?

There's little evidence that wearing a bra delays or prevents saggy breasts. In fact, some experts believe that immobilizing the breasts in a bra causes Cooper's ligaments to atrophy - so they're less capable of firmly supporting the breasts.

One small Japanese study that followed young women who wore a bra or went braless for three months found at the end of the study that the women who wore a bra had breasts that hung down slightly more. Although this is hardly a respectable scientific study, it does call into question the benefits of wearing a bra to prevent saggy breasts. Even bra manufacturers admit that the function of a bra is to change the appearance of the breasts while the bra is being worn.

Wearing a Sports Bra to Prevent Saggy Breasts

There is one situation where wearing a bra might be helpful for preventing breast sagging. Women who run, or do high-impact exercise and have large breasts, put considerable stress on Cooper's ligaments -which could cause them to stretch. Wearing a sports bra may prevent this. Plus, it makes exercise more comfortable.

I am home now and I was able to watch the video and get these links up. It looks like there is no real conclusion or agreement, so take from this what you will. At this point in time, I will continue to side with these particular studies as they seem more valid to me than one doctor on tv, if you find more evidence supporting your claim, let me know. In the process of searching for this stuff, I found out that it seems unanimous that brestfeeding has no effect on whether or not breasts sag, I find that interesting, I would have thought it made a difference.

[Llamas]

It's tough for me to take someone's word without sources and evidence when they so frequently misunderstand other people (it was obvious that pilz was making an analogy with the frog thing... very surprising you thought he actually wanted to discuss it here...) and use such weak grammar. I don't expect everyone to understand everyone else all the time and use perfect grammar; I'm just saying that they're not the greatest signs that I should just believe everything someone says without sources and proof.

I am a woman and I wear bras, so you guys can throw this whole, "You're not a woman and don't wear bras, so you can't talk about this!" crap out the window. Reminds me of when I lived in CZ and Czechs constantly told me I couldn't have an opinion on racism against the Gypsies there because I'm not Czech myself and "could never understand". So dumb. Of course a man can discuss the biological and physical causes of ptosis. He's not claiming to be an expert in any way.

One doctor claiming that bras prevent sagging is not enough to counter all the doctors and scientists who state there is no evidence for this, sorry. Doctors and scientists never agree unanimously on things, but I tend to go with the majority of them or at least with someone who's been proven right many times in the past. Why should I just believe that one woman and not all the others?

Also, I'm guessing that many people retain a lot of information from sources they don't remember - at least it happens to me all the time. When I know some information but don't recall the source, I make that very clear. I state the information, and then state that I don't remember where I got it from, so until I can back it up with actual sources, it should be taken with a grain of salt. I suggest you do the same.

[Harleyquiiinn]

I am a woman and I wear bras, so you guys can throw this whole, "You're not a woman and don't wear bras, so you can't talk about this!" crap out the window. Reminds me of when I lived in CZ and Czechs constantly told me I couldn't have an opinion on racism against the Gypsies there because I'm not Czech myself and "could never understand". So dumb. Of course a man can discuss the biological and physical causes of ptosis. He's not claiming to be an expert in any way.

Oh about that... these days, during week ends, I'm doing this thing where I assist people who just got arrested and are interrogated by cops.

2 weeks ago, it was a ten year old boy (who looked more like 8...) arrested for trying to steal some money at an ATM with his buddies or cousins or brothers... we never could figure this out.
Anyway, the kid was a Gypsy from Romania. He couldn't speak french so they made a romanian interpret come.

Man, that guy was an asshole. Saying stuff like "why do you even ask ? of course it's him, he never went to school, he can't read and can't even speak correctly". All of what he said was true, and I am not that naive either. But it is just the way he said it. So condenscending. And I was really schocked how he refused to acknowledge he was just a small boy.

Even the cops were freaked out by how young and tiny he were. I told him "you know, yes he probably did it, and sure, he is not an angel. But come on, he's a kid and he certainly doesn't have a say in this. Can't you see that ?"

He made a weird disgusted sound and we left it there.

[Llamas]

Oh about that... these days, during week ends, I'm doing this thing where I assist people who just got arrested and are interrogated by cops.

2 weeks ago, it was a ten year old boy (who looked more like 8...) arrested for trying to steal some money at an ATM with his buddies or cousins or brothers... we never could figure this out.
Anyway, the kid was a Gypsy from Romania. He couldn't speak french so they made a romanian interpret come.

Man, that guy was an asshole. Saying stuff like "why do you even ask ? of course it's him, he never went to school, he can't read and can't even speak correctly". All of what he said was true, and I am not that naive either. But it is just the way he said it. So condenscending. And I was really schocked how he refused to acknowledge he was just a small boy.

Even the cops were freaked out by how young and tiny he were. I told him "you know, yes he probably did it, and sure, he is not an angel. But come on, he's a kid and he certainly doesn't have a say in this. Can't you see that ?"

He made a weird disgusted sound and we left it there.

Wow, that poor kid... it's not like he chose to not get a good education, like he decided he didn't want to learn to read... and a freaking child, at that! That's so sad... instead of trying to help him and wanting to fix things, they blame and point fingers and shame him.

[_Lost_]

Reminds me of a racism thread, where JohnnyNemesis said something about being sick of white people talking about racism like they know what it feels like... or something.

Melyssa, WebDudette was not attacking you in any way. It could have been a nice little discussion about boob saggage and whether or not bras affected it, but you got so caught up in him 'doubting' you. Honestly, "I've seen pictures" really is no way to draw a conclusion and that is how you made it sound like you came to your conclusion. If you had said "I read this article one time" or something similar, it would've gotten a different response. But what really happened here was you presented what you thought was clear evidence and someone responded with contradicting information, and you took that to mean he was attacking you with wikipedia.

And his point is right. Wikipedia can be a useful place to start. Well written articles often provide you with a plethora of reliable sources that you can research further.

["Melyssa K" Kennedy]

"It's tough for me to take someone's word without sources and evidence when they so frequently misunderstand other people (it was obvious that pilz was making an analogy with the frog thing... very surprising you thought he actually wanted to discuss it here...) and use such weak grammar."
- It's easy to misunderstand people when communicating through text. There are no vocal tones or pauses to read, no facial expressions to examine, no hand gestures to observe. I use weak grammar? What constitutes weak grammar, anyway?

I am a woman and I wear bras, so you guys can throw this whole, "You're not a woman and don't wear bras, so you can't talk about this!"
- I never said that. I have no idea why you think I did.

"One doctor claiming that bras prevent sagging is not enough to counter all the doctors and scientists who state there is no evidence for this, sorry."
- I'm not going to spend time researching this topic. I have chemistry labs to write and calculus to study. Those are more important than researching a topic that I'm not using for academic purposes.

[Paint_It_Black]

I'm pretty sure that nudity itself is not illegal in most US states and can in fact be a protected right, counting somehow as free speech/expression I believe. Lewd conduct and other behavior considered antisocial is what technically violates the law. Though in practice this distinction seems to matter little unless you have a large group of nudists staging some kind of planned event. I witnessed a massive nude bike ride in Oregon recently that was fascinating. Thousands of people participated. While I don't really understand why people want to do it I have no problem with it and can certainly see the appeal in more appropriate locations, such as beaches. Nudity is entirely natural and the seemingly ever-present link between nudity and sex is purely cultural. Having said that, sex is also entirely natural and the seemingly ever-present stigma placed on sexual conduct is also purely cultural and unnecessary. I have no problem with seeing people naked and have no problem with watching people engaged in sexual activity. Nudity does seem impractical in an urban setting though, and if there is a legitimate sexual aspect to the nudity it is of course prudent to keep this activity away from children. I just try to base my opinions on pragmatism rather than abstract concepts of morality imposed on me.