Increasing violence in France

[Norwegian Cat]

I'm talking about the car-burning, etc, in France, that is slowly going over to Germany, produced by second and third generation of inmigrants.

Why?

[wheelchairman]

It's not going over to Germany just yet.

The situation is much different in France. You have to understand that a lot of this has to do with France's colonial past. And how they relate to their former colonial subjects. Not to mention the abominal situation in which they've been keeping their immigrants from the colonies, for like, the past 40 years.

I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. Especially since Le Front has been getting more and more...attention.

[Norwegian Cat]

But one can say: "who's responsible for this increasing racism against the immigrant community?"

And most people will say: "They are the responsible! They burn our cars and houses! They are the criminals!"
And many have a tendency to generalize ("All immigrants are criminals!")

[JoY]

speaking of violence.. a lawyer has been shot in the Netherlands. what the hell happened to our down-to-earth, peaceful, calm mentality?? first Pim Fortuyn, then Theo van Gogh, then all the criminals started shooting each other & now they're shooting their own lawyers??

that's it. I'm moving to China.

[wheelchairman]

Cross-posted from a discussion in Soviet empire.

I said:

France has been famous for it's terrible integration policies, coupled with huge and vast areas of ghetto. Let's look at this as marxists, these people aren't just nuts who like to blow shit up and get high.

France has a very long, and very violent colonial past. When the nation of France lost her colonies, racism became ever more rampant, seeing as the soldiers who fought in this war, quite naturally became very....biased towards people like the moroccans, or the algerians.

As any and every nation through history has done with it's immigrants, France has also done the same creation of an ethnic underclass. Foreign university degrees are worthless, meaning that anyone who is foreign must fund their own education should they want to get a good job and break the class cycle. Now anyone who is poor and foreign, and trying to fund their education will have significant problems with finding jobs other than cab driver, kiosk owner, etc. etc. And they basically maintain a life of poverty, they will live in the areas with the cheapest rent.

All the people who are foreign will flock to low-rent areas, and voilá, you got a creation of a ghetto. Now they raise their children, with other children of non-french ethnicities, since they live in a ghetto. And all these kids see, is how their fathers never got a chance, even though they were often more intelligent, more honest, whatever, than the French. It creates a very distinct racial barrier. Since it is a largely ethnically segregated nation.

Now these kids see their fathers, their mothers, poor and working themselves to death, to raise money for their kids. And these kids want to avoid this future, however the ghetto schools are usually very poorly equipped, I believe they are funded with the taxes of the surrounding area, which is obviously, not very much. Not to mention the fact that from an early age these kids will have to work a lot, to help pay some of the bills with their parents. So their studies will be neglected to a certain degree. And really the cycle of poverty continues. The ghettos have gotten larger since the end of the Algerian war, there was never an ethnic integration.

And integration is something that must be done by the inhabitants of a nation first! You cannot expect people to integrate when you keep them as an economic underclass. Then they have every justification to firebomb 1500 cars in a night. I haven't read the news, but I've spent time in France, and I could see this coming from way back when. It was long overdue. Especially with the very aggressive agitation by idiots like Le Penn and the party Le Front. Making the crime rates appear as an ethnic problem, instead of a class one.

Which is utterly ridiculous.

[Norwegian Cat]

WCM, you're a wise man :p

I understand everything... It wasn't easy for me to integrate in the Spanish community, but of course, it's not the same situation.

But wouldn't French people vote for a more right-winger party for getting their car burned?
Here's an article I've found in Norwegian (Ithink you'll understand it)---> http://blog.vg.no/blog1234.html

BTW, you work for a newspaper, right? Which one?

[Jesus]

1. Those kids that hid in a power station and got electrocuted deserve to win the Darwin Awards.

2. Buy stocks from Peugot, Renault and Citroen now

3. Do they use alcohol (bad muslims says Allah) or gas (high prices!) to burn those things

4. "Then they have every justification to firebomb 1500 cars in a night" Disagreed and certainly no justification, it doesn't help to blow up schools, cars, buses with people still on them. It will just move more people to the FN and destroy all the work done by progressive muslims (same shit here a couple years ago with the AEL).

5. If it were up to me I'd sent Zidane, Djorkaeff, Trezeguet, Henry, etc there.

6. If that doesn't help move in "violently" and finally start doing something constructive. Thus finally include positive discrimination and anti-racism laws when one talks about equal opportunity, because an equal opportunity structure without these things is pointless. Although I doubt it, due to the violence being used by the kids a move to right will probably be made in the coming years.

[wheelchairman]

Justification is the wrong word. Understandable is more what I was going after. I think their situation excuses them, since they are the victims of generations of political oppression.

However while violence may alienate the population, it is usually the biggest wake-up call that the current state is not working. And that the status quo must change. And it will change, just enough to appease the majority of the violent youth. Or else there will be a generational holocaust of ethnic youth, but I really don't think that's likely at all.

[wheelchairman]

Your analogy isn't quite so good. The one about the father of the raped. I dislike analogies in general though.

It's so easy to criticize them from where we sit, for their violence. But racial violence, does solve things, it was instrumental in the black civil rights movement in the states, it's the threat of violence that motivates, and makes them impossible to ignore.

Right now, the constituents of many of the largest parties, are recieving substantial damage to their property. To preserve status quo, they will need to make sure that violence stops. And cracking harder on those immigrant kids (and immigrant is such a tacky term for people whose families have lived their for 3 generations.) will only make it worse.

[Sin Studly]

The frogs should fire on the crowds.

[Sin Studly]

I don't see why anyone should care, it looks like only frogs and muslims will be killed.

[Norwegian Cat]

If they feel like they're being treated as scum, then wont this agressive demonstration difficult for them the integration help? I mean, do you think an arab will get a job as a pilot in the U.S.? As a chemist at a nuclear plant?

Etc...

[wheelchairman]

Oh, so you reverse the problem. It's not the immigrants' fault, that's the fault of the system. Very marxist.
I don't reverse anything. This is the problem as I see it. I can't help that you see it backwards in comparison to the way I do. And I'm aware it's marxist, that however, doesn't negate my point. Or if it did, you shouldn't waste your time arguing with me.

And they conduct themselves like pigs. You can't just lump all the immigrants. If you're a decent person & you saunter in a 'city' (French for ghetti), you're very likely to get slaughtered. Those North-African immigrants are the lowest trash of trash. And as long as they stay that way, the ghettos, which are supposed to get revamped any time soon, will NEVER get gentrified. There won't be any mixing of populations, of ethnies.
Are you saying that North Africa is the home of scum? Because then you are over-simplifying it. Many of their problems comes from the fact that they never got the psychological help they needed when they emigrated, and there can be a lot of trauma for a refugee family. Especially if they've experienced things like torture. These cases are usually never treated.

Ghetto revamping is a thing that's always promised. What probably would've happened is that the ghetto would've moved somewhere else.

And by immigrants, I obviously mean ones of non-Western decent. Because their cultures clash far more than that of a Greek, or an American.

As far as ghetto schools go. How good do you think a teacher can prepare, if she runs the risk of a throat thrashing? There will never be good schools in a ghetto for as long as there are ghettos.

[Norwegian Cat]

My brother just read it's gone over to Germany and Belgium...

[Norwegian Cat]

Interesting site ---> http://www.jihadwatch.org/

[Mota Boy]

So, anyone want to start taking bets on when this is going to peak? Let's get a pool going.

[Norwegian Cat]

I think the key question is "HOW will this end?" rather than "WHEN will this end?"

[T-6005]

I have to admit, as usual, that I haven't been keeping abreast of current events. Personally, however, I'm siding with WCM on this one. It's been waiting for a while - but then again, in France people are very seldom afraid to openly speak their minds. Strikes are pretty much a national pastime at this point, and the rioting is just the result of a different form of discontent.

Personally, I am sure that Sarkozy was not referring to ethnicity when he used the word "scum", but it was an easy thing to jump on for the would-be rioters, and the media has always blown things up.

[Sin Studly]

People are only rioting because they have things too good. If the government used live rounds on the crowd, they'd realise that the rioting idea wasn't such a good one and all run along home. The ones who survive, that is.

[Norwegian Cat]

So, they're going to expulse the immigrants from France, whether they're legal or illegal immigrants...
Cars in Germany and Belgium are also begining to burn.

BTW, someone has signed with a graffiti on walls in Barcelona, Spain:

"La llama se extiende
PARIS/BCN"

Which means: "The flame is extending
PARIS/BCN (Barcelona)"

[wheelchairman]

What kind of Gen d'armes uses hand grenades on les gens?

[HornyPope]

Le toit, le toit
Le toit est en feu
On a pas besoin d'eau laisse ce connard cramer
brule connard brule

[wheelchairman]

Gendarmes. La maréchaussée, auld coco.
It was tear gas, baby, tear gas to push les gens off. The kind of tear gas grannies use to defend themselves against thugs. You've got no objection to that, I hope? *glowers*
Then how was his hand ripped off?

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but it takes a lot of force to remove a hand from the arm.

[DexterB]

The violence is decreasing in France,but for how long? Here in Belgium are also kids who throw molotov coctails at cars, kinda stupid. things aren't the way they used to be anymore. Like the stuff in France and people getting killed. Not so long ago, a guy named John Mieremet was killed, he lived not so far from here on a district, full of mafia... and I knew his doughter. Kinda crazy world we're living in

[SkyRocker]

So, anyone want to start taking bets on when this is going to peak? Let's get a pool going.
Saturday evening, Football match between France and Germany.
The game takes place in the "Stade de France" in Seine-St-Denis, our hottest suburb. I fear this could be kinda fucked up.
Either policemen will be conscripted for it, and those idiots could burn unprotected places or just try to penetrate on the field, some kind of things like that...

[wheelchairman]

I love how your immigrant community is so disenfranchised and divorced from French society, that the only way they get any attention, is through violent uprising. And yet, the only thing you care about is a football game.


Jesus fucking christ.

[memento]

Yeah it'd be different if it were hockey or something. But football jeez.

[SkyRocker]

I never thought anybody would ever have to say that to you but did you read what i posted ?
those idiots could burn unprotected places
Fuck, i don't care about this match, that will only be the detonator, don't base your opinion on my av...Why the fuck do you think I have a problem with immigrant ?!
My city is full of burned cars, one people died near my home, my college just had a bomb alert and i don't care...of course...please !

[wheelchairman]

We're having a discussion about immigration and integration, and you were talking about football. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, but it was an easy mistake to make.

[notoriousdoc]

Who bombed Amman? The Jews, of course

^ What we were all thinking

[T-6005]

We're having a discussion about immigration and integration, and you were talking about football. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, but it was an easy mistake to make.
It is semirelated though. I mean, it's in a very unstable part of the city and it's a pretty big match.

[Norwegian Cat]

Cars burned in... Greece??? :confused:

I mean, why does this expand? I understand that "OK, it's in France 'cause they have problems with their integration policies and their colonial past, etc." but... why Greece?

[Satanic_Surfer]

A solidarity action occured in Sweden not long time ago as a bunch of syndicalists/communists and kickers launched a bunch of molotovs at a cop car, however they got away quickly and there are what so ever no traces.

Medias in Finland tells that it depends on immigration and hands out lists prooving that Finland has the least immigration of Europe.
That is a common idea though let me just ask... if it would be white kids left into the ghettos working overtime to survive, would they be less violent? Nothing has yet prooved it to be a majority of people in the riots that has been from other countries though. And what makes a person from another nation but France, more violent?

[Nikako22]

AS time goes on riots like this will get worse all over Europe, mostly because Muslim immigrants are going to start being the largest part of Europes population especially if the EU constitution gets passed(Because it will allow citizens of Turkey to move freely throughout Europe). France is a natural starting point because of its discriminatory laws against religion and specifically Islam.