தமிழ்!

[XYlophonetreeZ]

I enjoy learning languages. My only real, extensive experience in language learning comes from Spanish classes in high school and college. I would have enjoyed it a lot more, but all of the language education I've ever had has sucked so royally that I got fed up, and when I fulfilled my school's foreign language requirement level in Spanish, which makes me "fluent" (I still don't really feel fluent), I had an opportunity to take more advanced classes, or to start taking classes in a brand new language. I decided that I'm too trupunx for crappy institutionalized foreign language education, and I realized that with the Internet on my side, I can teach myself a language. Well, it's been a year since I finished my Spanish classes, and I've been kinda busy, plus I had to decide logically which language to try to learn next. At long last, I have decided.

தமிழ்!

...Sorry. I chose Tamil. That's what I said. Why? Why, I've got lotsa reasons!

1. It has an awesome, funky, loopy script. That's cool.
2. I've kinda-sorta-almost been dating a Tamil girl who's pretty cool.
3. There are a lot of Tamil people in Suriname, where I hope to go to research in a couple of years because it's simply the most interesting country in the world.
4. Novelty factor + There's a small chance I may actually use it someday.
5. It's an official language of Singapore. I fucking hate Singapore. All the better for me to tell them to go fuck themselves.
6. I do what I want.

I downloaded this nifty uniKode program that I've been tooling around with and I'm learning the Tamil alphabet suprisingly quickly with its aid.

ஜானதன் மைகழ் ஷ்வொழ்ட்ஜ்ஃ

That's my full name. I think. My first name is really straightforward, middle name is fairly straightforward, and my last name is damn near impossible to transliterate. Is it all showing up as little squares? Sorry. You can always go here (http://mog.software.free.fr/Tamil/index.html) to download it and see all the purdy letters.

This may be a weird request, but could anyone help me practice? Give me your name and I'll attempt to transliterate it. And you'll benefit by seeing your name in this nifty-lookin' lingo.

[Vera]

Sanni!

I loooove Tamil. Not only does it have the awesomest sounds ever, it has a beautiful script, it's one of the most ancient languages in the world and some really amazing Indian films have been made in Tamil - including The Most Entertaining Movie Ever aka Anniyan (which means 'stranger', btw).

Anyways, I once found a website on Chicago U's server with online Tamil lessons. I honestly couldn't work my head around the script - it's not as easy as the Hindi one! - so I sort of gave up before I even began. But good luck to you! Especially regarding Tamil spoken and written, and the major differences between the two. As somebody whose mother tongue is vastly different in ordinary spoken language and written language, I really feel for anybody who tries to tackle a similar language with tons of differences between those two forms of language.

[XYlophonetreeZ]

Ha, I figured you'd be the first to respond! Anyway, yeah, the beautiful script was what initially attracted my interest. I'd say that aside from MAYBE Georgian, it has the coolest script of any language I know of. But Georgian would be absolute HELL to learn, plus I would never ever ever use it.

That's interesting that even to a native Finnish speaker, Tamil is still more difficult than Hindi. I don't know much about Finnish, but I guess even though you're technically Uralic, you probably borrow a lot from your Indo-European neighbors, and the difficulty of a Dravidian language would be much the same as it is for an English speaker.

Anyway, I've been practicing pronunciation a bit- it's hard! Especially the fact that they have like 5 distinct "n" sounds. WTF?? But mainly I'm just trying to get the alphabet down pat first because that's the most fun part. I'm kind of afraid I'll lose interest and give up on it if I overwhelm myself with actually learning vocabulary right away.

Oh, btw, can you see the characters I've written, or are they just squares?

Edit: Almost forgot- Sanni = ஸானீ!

[Tizzalicious]

Maartje, go ahead!

It does look pretty cool.

[wheelchairman]

Transliteration is the easy part. You can learn that after a week in a foreign country. I can do both Russian and Greek (granted they are significantly more Latin looking than Tamil). Can't speak a word of either language though.

My name: Per Ulrich Deverell Pedersen

Per is pronounced almost the same as Pier (like a dock, not like a confused frenchman.) Ulrich has a hard "k" sound and not a "ch".

[XYlophonetreeZ]

Transliteration is the easy part.
:( Yeah, I know. Like I said, I'm learning it first because it makes everything else more fun.

Maartje (Could be wrong on account of Dutchness) = மாழ்த்ஜ

Per Ulrich Deverell Pedersen = பிழ் ௨ல்ழிக் தவழல் பீத்ழஸன்

That's all for this morning. More after I get my 3 hours of sleep.

[Vera]

That's interesting that even to a native Finnish speaker, Tamil is still more difficult than Hindi. I don't know much about Finnish, but I guess even though you're technically Uralic, you probably borrow a lot from your Indo-European neighbors, and the difficulty of a Dravidian language would be much the same as it is for an English speaker.
Well, in terms of grammar, Finnish AFAIK is a rather typical Finno-Ugric language - not Uralic, though, that's an entirely different branch of Finno-Ugric, as far as I'm aware away. We have loan words from Russian, Swedish, German etc *a lot* but the grammar of all of those is very different from ours. Anyway, as far as Tamil is concerned, I suppose I grasp certain things more easily than somebody who only knows English - like to them it may feel puzzling at first that plural, position, tense etc is basically expressed in some letters behind the basic word (instead of separate words), but to me it makes perfect sense.

Tamil was more difficult to get into for me mainly because of the script where each syllable has a different mark. Hindi's Devganari works on a syllable bases but there are basically letters like k, j, c, m, and then marks that make them kaa, ke, ki, ko - and the same marks turn m into maa, me, mi, mo. That may sound difficult and Devganari does have its exceptions, irregularities and other difficulties but the basics are simple and very phonetic and thus easy.

Though I think Tamil script is probably much easier to grasp than Chinese characters.

And the fact I'm fluent in English and okay in Swedish, German, of course helps in grasping the basics of Hindi. They're far from being close relatives but still, not as alien as they could be. Plus I've watched more Hindi films than Tamil films - that helps, too.

Also the colloquial differences scare me - it might not be as bad in Tamil as it is in Finnish, though. In Finnish we drop syllables, letters, even grammar when we speak it - the "proper" written Finnish looks vastly different from what comes out of my mouth every day. An example..

Proper written Finnish: "Me menemme nyt. Tuletko sinä sitten myöhemmin?" (We're going now. Will you come later, then? - lolzcum)

Spoken: "Me mennää ny. Tuutsä sit myöhemmi?" (menemme, plural present, is changed into passive 'mennää(n)', t dropped from 'nyt', 'tuutsä' or 'tuut sä', shortened forms of 'tuletko' and 'sinä', 'sit' = sitten etc.)

This plus slang words, expressions etc - it's quite a puzzle for a foreigner. Poor foreigners! Anyway, like I said, not sure if Tamil is *this* different when it comes to spoken Tamil.


Anyway, I've been practicing pronunciation a bit- it's hard! Especially the fact that they have like 5 distinct "n" sounds. WTF?? But mainly I'm just trying to get the alphabet down pat first because that's the most fun part. I'm kind of afraid I'll lose interest and give up on it if I overwhelm myself with actually learning vocabulary right away.

Hope you don't lose interest! Knowing Tamil - or Tamizh as it should be written properly - would be fab.

For learning pronounciation I definitely rec BBC Tamil web radio: http://www.bbc.co.uk/tamil/

For spoken Tamil, obviously Tamil movies which normally have characters living in Chennai or villages, speaking a very earthy type of Tamil. Plus raunchy movie song lyrics. You have to know how to pick up a girl in Tamil by saying something romantic like, "Would you like to get injured by my moustache?". (Meaning basically, would you like to be kissed by me!) XD!

[Whiplash]

How about my name?: Rolf van Egmond

[Vera]

Oh and I do see the letters - I have the Tamil font downloaded.

[Sinister]

I see them on college comp, but that's not surprising considering the keyboard can handle english/french/german/spanish. I'm pretty sure every single computerized script ever is installed on these machines.

Also : Simon Dubé.

[wheelchairman]

I see them and I haven't installed anything fancy, ever.

[T-6005]

I also haven't installed anything.

Thibault Kervarech, if you please.

[XYlophonetreeZ]

Well, in terms of grammar, Finnish AFAIK is a rather typical Finno-Ugric language - not UralicI was taught that Finno-Ugric is officially a branch of Uralic, but God knows whether there's actually a consensus on this stuff.

Tamil was more difficult to get into for me mainly because of the script where each syllable has a different mark. Hindi's Devganari works on a syllable bases but there are basically letters like k, j, c, m, and then marks that make them kaa, ke, ki, ko - and the same marks turn m into maa, me, mi, mo. That may sound difficult and Devganari does have its exceptions, irregularities and other difficulties but the basics are simple and very phonetic and thus easy. Well Tamil is an abugida script just like Devanagari. Most consonants are assigned the default short a sound, and otherwise are marked with a diacritic according to what vowel sound is made. If there is no vowel they tack on a little dot.

Though I think Tamil script is probably much easier to grasp than Chinese characters.
Definitely. Syllabic/abugida scripts are cake compared to Chinese logographs.

And the fact I'm fluent in English and okay in Swedish, German, of course helps in grasping the basics of Hindi. They're far from being close relatives but still, not as alien as they could be. Plus I've watched more Hindi films than Tamil films - that helps, too.
I bet the Swedish would be especially helpful because you're familiar with all those devilish retroflex consonants.


For learning pronounciation I definitely rec BBC Tamil web radio: http://www.bbc.co.uk/tamil/

Thanks, I'll check it out!

For the record, the only Finnish phrase I know is "Salivili hipput tupput täppyt äppyt tipput hilijalleen."

I see them and I haven't installed anything fancy, ever.
OK, good, it seems like most people do. I only wondered because I IM'd my brother in Tamil earlier and he got squares.

[JohnnyNemesis]

Give me your name and I'll attempt to transliterate it. And you'll benefit by seeing your name in this nifty-lookin' lingo.

Try to transliterate the following:

YO' MAMMA IS A HO'.

[Tizzalicious]

I can see them too. My name looks half pretty and swirly, half ugly. Bleeeh.

[HeadAroundU]

whoa, you have the balls. I would never pick the language like this for billion reasons. :p

Translate "HAU", please!

[Vera]

I was taught that Finno-Ugric is officially a branch of Uralic, but God knows whether there's actually a consensus on this stuff.
Whoops, I wiki'ed that shit and you're right. It's just that in schools here we're taught the FINNISH IS A WONDERFUL AND UNIQUE LANGUAGE agenda so the fact that Finno-Ugric languages actually are a SUBgroup of some other group doesn't get much emphasis.


I bet the Swedish would be especially helpful because you're familiar with all those devilish retroflex consonants.
Which retroflex ones (sorry, linguistic terminology not my strong suit)? I still can't figure out the 'zh' sound. Some say it sounds like L in some words but mostly it's a really peculiar sound, somewhere between d and r and t and god knows what else. I can't figure it out.


For the record, the only Finnish phrase I know is "Salivili hipput tupput täppyt äppyt tipput hilijalleen."
Hahaha, love that youtube vid. Too bad only "hiljalleen" actually means something in that sentence (it means 'with a slow pace').

Ricky - I'd rather Mr Treez TRANSLATE that. Ain't nothing like a momma insult in Indian languages!

Actually, in Bollywood films where there's not much cursing to be done, the most crude ones are usually "salaa/saleh" (about as strong as "dammit") and "teri maa..." (your mom ..I guess it's one of those "fill the blanks with the most offensive thing ever" type of insults). Ironically, they curse a LOT in English. "Shit!" usually. [/trivia]

[JohnnyNemesis]

I was following his terminology when I said transliterate :( YO' MAMMA IS A HO'.

[Vera]

But you know the difference, right? Transliterate = write in different script, translate is ..translate.

[JohnnyNemesis]

ya i kno, k?:eek: :eek: :cool:

[Vera]

ஒக, ओकेइ!**

** Ok, Ok!

[XYlophonetreeZ]

Which retroflex ones (sorry, linguistic terminology not my strong suit)? I still can't figure out the 'zh' sound. Some say it sounds like L in some words but mostly it's a really peculiar sound, somewhere between d and r and t and god knows what else. I can't figure it out.

Oh, I'm just learning this crap right now. But retroflex consonants are basically versions of our own consonants in which the tongue touches the roof of the mouth really far back. Apparently, North Indian languages (due to the Dravidian influence from the south) and for some strange reason, Swedish, are the only Indo-European languages to use retroflex consonants.

I'll do a few of these names.

Whiplash = Rolf van Egmond = ரொல்வ் வன் ௭க்மந்்
Sinister = Simon Dubé = ஸிமொன் துபே
T-6005 = Thibault Kervarech = திபொல்ட் கழ்வரக்
Ricardo: STFU BEANER. Actually though, I'm gonna do Ricardo cuz the letter for Spanish r's would be different from the letter for English r's.: றிகார்தொ.

[wheelchairman]

Haha that must be why some swedes say "Peu-ho!" instead of "peugeot". LOL

[Vera]

Oh, I'm just learning this crap right now. But retroflex consonants are basically versions of our own consonants in which the tongue touches the roof of the mouth really far back. Apparently, North Indian languages (due to the Dravidian influence from the south) and for some strange reason, Swedish, are the only Indo-European languages to use retroflex consonants.

I wiki'ed it and I sort of get it now.. The bad thing is, Swedish is also spoken in Finland so we usually learn the Finnish-Swedish accent which is less sing-songy than actual Swedish. It's closer to Finnish. So I'm not sure how well I can do those fancy retroflex sounds.

[fuckme!]

Ahh these things are always good to know.

My name if you please, Gordon Brown.

[ruroken]

Urm... how are you learning what the symbols mean? Am I supposed to do more at the site than just download that software?

[XYlophonetreeZ]

No, that's what the many other sources on the Internet are for.

[ruroken]

Alright, I'm in. But I'm a slow learner. Especially when I'm teaching myself.

[XYlophonetreeZ]

Welcome aboard the Tamil-train, young padawan. Let's spam the BBS with interesting Tamil conversations from now on.

[PilZ-E]

My name is probably rather simple, Cody Smith.
Or you could try my friends name, Kuniyasu Fukuda.

[All About Eve]

It sounds fascinating, but well beyond the amount of effort and time I have to give.