Russia Invades Georgia [Archive] - Offspring.com Forums

IamSam

08-08-2008, 10:50 PM

South Ossetia fighting risks wider war

By MUSA SADULAYEV, Associated Press Writer 59 minutes ago

Russia sent an armored column into the breakaway enclave of South Ossetia after Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, launched an offensive to crush separatists. Georgia reported early Saturday that warplanes attacked three of its bases and some key oil facilities.

Witnesses said hundreds of civilians have died in the fighting, which threatened to ignite a wider war between Georgia and Russia and escalate tensions between Moscow and Washington.

Georgia said it was forced to launch the assault because of rebel attacks; the separatists alleged Georgia violated a cease-fire.

The South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was reportedly devastated. Ossetia spokeswoman Irina Gagloyeva said the city came under prolonged fire during the night "but it was suppressed" by the armed forces, the Interfax news agency quoted her as saying Saturday.

"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. "It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

The fighting broke out as much of the world's attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were in Beijing.

The timing suggested Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia — a key to his hold on power. The rebels seek to unite with North Ossetia, which is part of Russia.

Saakashvili agreed the timing was not coincidental, but accused Russia of being the aggressor. "Most decision makers have gone for the holidays," he told CNN. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country."

Seeking to prevent an all-out war, diplomats issued a flurry of statements calling on both sides to halt the fighting. The U.N. Security Council held two tense emergency sessions 12 hours apart with both sides using the forum to launch accusations. As the meeting recessed, officials promised a third council session Saturday.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Russia to halt aircraft and missile attacks and withdraw combat forces from Georgian territory. Rice said in a statement the United States wants Russia to respect Georgian sovereignty and agree to international mediation.

The leader of South Ossetia's rebel government, Eduard Kokoity, said about 1,400 people were killed in the onslaught, the Interfax news agency reported. The toll could not be independently confirmed.

As night fell, there were conflicting claims as to who held the battlefield advantage.

Saakashvili said "Georgian military forces completely control all the territory of South Ossetia" except for a northern section adjacent to Russia. But Russian news agencies cited a Russian military official as saying heavy fighting was under way on the outskirts of the regional capital.

Early Saturday, Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital was bombed by warplanes during the night and that bombs fell in the area of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline. He also said two other Georgian military bases were hit and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

Utiashvili said there apparently were significant casualties and damage in the attacks, but that further details would not be known until the morning.

Earlier, Georgia's Foreign Ministry accused Russian aircraft of bombing two military air bases, inflicting some casualties and destroying several military aircraft. Rustavi 2 television said four people were killed and five wounded at the Marneuli air base.

Twelve Russian troops were killed and 30 wounded in the fighting, said Russian Ground Forces spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov. Saakashvili said late Friday that about 30 Georgians had been killed "mainly members of the Georgian armed forces."

It was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting. Both claim the battle started after the other side violated a cease-fire that had been declared just hours earlier after a week of sporadic clashes.

The United States was sending in its top Caucasus envoy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza, to try to end the bloodshed.

It was the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Russian troops went in as peacekeepers but Georgia alleges they now back the separatists.

Russia, which has granted citizenship to most of the region's residents, appeared to lay much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on Washington.

In a telephone conversation with Rice, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Georgia must be convinced to withdraw its forces, according to a ministry statement.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Georgia has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.

Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow.

Georgia has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain. But Saakashvili told CNN the troops would be called home Saturday in the face of the South Ossetia fighting.

A senior U.S. defense official said Georgian authorities have asked the United States for help getting their troops out of Iraq. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the discussions have been private, said no formal decision has been made on whether to support the departure, but said it is likely the U.S. will do so.

Also, Pentagon officials said Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has reached out to his counterparts in Russia and Georgia, but has not yet connected with them.

Russia's Defense Ministry said it was sending in reinforcements for its troops in the province, and Russian state television and Georgian officials reported a convoy of tanks had crossed the border. The convoy was expected to reach the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, by evening, Channel One television said.

Putin warned in the early stages of the conflict that the Georgian attack would draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

Chairing a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev also vowed that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.

"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished."

On Friday, an AP reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia — supporting the reports of an incursion. Some villagers were fleeing into Russia.

The Georgian state minister for reintegration, Temur Yakobashvili, said Georgian forces had shot down four Russian combat planes over Georgian territory but gave no details. Russia's Defense Ministry denied an earlier Georgia report about one Russian plane downed and had no immediate comment on the latest claim.

Yakobashvili said one Russian plane had dropped a bomb on the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, but no one was hurt. More than 1,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers were at the base last month to teach combat skills to Georgian troops.

South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire.

Georgia's president said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.

A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.

The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict.

Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.

And for you people who have no sense of geography:

http://www.georgians.ge/georgia_map.gif

For further reading on Ossetia, click here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia)

What is everyones thoughts on this?

adombomb222

08-08-2008, 10:53 PM

One of my family members lives in Georgia. We haven't heard from her yet.

Little_Miss_1565

08-08-2008, 11:36 PM

Wow, how totally fucked. Way to go, Pootie!

Mota Boy

08-08-2008, 11:52 PM

The situation is pretty fucked up, and the history of the interaction is practically farcial. I'm just hanging back and checking out the show, which appears to be running third in the day's media coverage to Edward's admission of an affair everyone knew about nine months ago and the Olympics.

My thought is that Russia will invade all of Georgia with the goal of setting up a puppet regime. Will be interesting watching.

Oh, P.S. (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk)

adombomb222

08-08-2008, 11:57 PM

90% of South Ossetia is a Russian citizen via Russian passports. That’s the Russians excuse to send tanks?

adombomb222

08-09-2008, 12:07 AM

Meetings in the UN are taking place. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html#cnnSTCVideo) The second meeting in 16 hours.

Little_Miss_1565

08-09-2008, 01:01 AM

The situation is pretty fucked up, and the history of the interaction is practically farcial. I'm just hanging back and checking out the show, which appears to be running third in the day's media coverage to Edward's admission of an affair everyone knew about nine months ago and the Olympics.

Probably because most everyone watching CNN thinks that the only Georgia with separatists is on our own soil.

Jakebert

08-09-2008, 01:14 AM

I guess you could say that they're going to Geoooorgaaaaa-aaa-haaa.'

God, I hope someone gets that.

the Alternate

08-09-2008, 07:17 AM

In such a conflict you can't trust any side cause both are usually lying. But some points can be cleared.

At first, about why most of Ossetian people are Russian citizens via passports. That wasn't a purposed action by the government but it is consequences of the law of Russian Federation that was accepted in early 90s and which tells that "everyone who has a Soviet passport to be able to exchange it to Russian passport at his own will". In early 90s Ossetians and Abkhazians rejected to get Georgian passports and remained with Soviet. According to Russian legislation, everyone who had Soviet citizenship can get Russian at will.

About Georgian Democracy. Have you seen it? The specific of this country makes it clear to make suggestion that it can be either anarchy or dictate. Anarchy leads to unstoppable wars, as it was before Georgia became a part of Russian Empire and then Soviet Union. Another thing is that Georgian president seeks allies as United States because he understands that US will use anything to hurt Russia and this is his opportunity to get financing and pressure on Russia to reach his own purposes and purposes of his clan inside Georgia. No one thinks about the Georgian people (is that democracy&). Neither Saakashvili, nor US government.

IamSam

08-09-2008, 09:37 AM

Another thing is that Georgian president seeks allies as United States because he understands that US will use anything to hurt Russia

Stop right there. The United States after the Cold War has attempted to play nice with Russia. We've even helped to include them in NATO. It's Russia, or Putin for that matter, that is trying his hardest to alienate his country from the world once again.

ad8

08-09-2008, 09:40 AM

IamSam

08-09-2008, 09:51 AM

I am not sure if I understood the article because what I read was that Russia started the war. In german news it was said that Georgia invaded Ossetia. Maybe U.S. news present it in a different way than european news.

Ossetia is a breakaway part of Georgia. It broke away during the 1990's and is not recognized by the UN.

Map of South Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:South_ossetia_english.png)

As you can see here, Ossetia is in Georgia. Georgia invaded to take it back, Russia got all indignant and in there space because some Russian citizens live there. It would be like a small part of France rebelled, France invaded it to take it back and there were German citizens there, so Germany invaded France and bombed Paris.

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 09:55 AM

PilZ-E

08-09-2008, 11:11 AM

I wont lie, it was far more exciting when I thought Russia invaded the state in the U.S.

IamSam

08-09-2008, 11:20 AM

You probably mean Alsace. That's the bone of contention (or was rather) between Germany and France. (it's ours now, but Alsatians speak some kind of Deutsch and eat sauerkraut). The case is different, Alsace borders Germany... but historically... well. ANYWAY. It led to wars.

Putin is such a show-hog. I'm waiting for the atomic bomb though.

Addendum: I wonder if this could ultimately be solely for oil control...

Dear....God...Maria it was a hypothetical statement...I thank you for giving us that brilliant paragraph on one more reason why France hates someone else, but my writing was hypothetical.

It gets better: Russia isn't just bombing military targets.

"Russia completely devastated the port of Poti on the Black Sea, which is a key port for the transport of energy sources from the Caspian Sea and is close to the Baku-Supsa pipeline and the Supsa oil terminal," the Saturday statement said.

I really don't understand why Russia is messing around in this. I mean...you'd think they wouldn't want to go all US on someones ass...

F@ BANKZ

08-09-2008, 11:24 AM

Mota Boy

08-09-2008, 11:37 AM

...US will use anything to hurt RussiaThat's a bit overly self-important. I think that the US's goals (the spread of democracy and NATO, greater influence in the region) directly conflict with Russia's, but that's a consequence of our policy goal's, not the primary motive.

1916

08-09-2008, 11:43 AM

2ad8: of course, dude, it is different news... like in a parallel world...

Saakashvilli - it's a american hound dog, so U.S. government will make all that can help Georgia. and most of american people (i think so, but i hope that i miss) will trust in news from Georgia. because all russians (or most of them) is very evil f****g people - as think everytime in USA and other countries. may be it so, but evil f****g people was sleeping when tank bombs from Georgia's side destroyed them place and killed peacemakers. and now when we have 15 killed and more than 200 wounded men all russians soldier stay on them place in Osetia - no actions to Georgia.
have a nice life !

IamSam

08-09-2008, 11:53 AM

Georgia is recalling their 2,000 troops stationed in Iraq and the US is providing transportation for them.

Saakashvilli - it's a american hound dog, so U.S. government will make all that can help Georgia. and most of american people (i think so, but i hope that i miss) will trust in news from Georgia. because all russians (or most of them) is very evil f****g people - as think everytime in USA and other countries. may be it so, but evil f****g people was sleeping when tank bombs from Georgia's side destroyed them place and killed peacemakers. and now when we have 15 killed and more than 200 wounded men all russians soldier stay on them place in Osetia - no actions to Georgia.
have a nice life !

Of course the US is going to help Georgia. They are an ally and we have a state named the same name. Russians aren't evil people, however I have never liked Putin and the regime he has put in place. True, Russia had 15 'peacekeepers' in there...but what were they really doing? Russia lies about operations all the time (for further proof, Russian police killed hundreds of innocent civilians at that theater and blamed it on the Chechneans). Please...Russia shouldn't have invaded just like the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq.

1916

08-09-2008, 11:58 AM

I really don't understand why Russia is messing around in this. I mean...you'd think they wouldn't want to go all US on someones ass...

hallilujah !!!
dude, you are best... why Russia invades Georgia (South Osetia only - do you mean not?) ?

IAmSam: oh yeah, there is many oil or other mineral resourses ?
me: hmm... look at Wiki statistic about Georgia and Russia territory for knowing that Russia dont need more resourses like it need for some Greedy businessmen from any country in North American.

IAmSam: haha... i think Russia want to be bigger than now for having more influences in region and be against USA !!!
me: ... of course... stupid russians want to be everytime against USA. russians like war action. after Second World War (after 27 billion killed men), after Afghanistan (15 000 killed men), after Chechnya (4 000 killed men) Russia like to have war action everytime for having more killed people.

IAmSam: hmm... so why Russia invades Georgia???

IamSam

08-09-2008, 12:03 PM

hallilujah !!!
dude, you are best... why Russia invades Georgia (South Osetia only - do you mean not?) ?

IAmSam: oh yeah, there is many oil or other mineral resourses ?
me: hmm... look at Wiki statistic about Georgia and Russia territory for knowing that Russia dont need more resourses like it need for some Greedy businessmen from any country in North American.

IAmSam: haha... i think Russia want to be bigger than now for having more influences in region and be against USA !!!
me: ... of course... stupid russians want to be everytime against USA. russians like war action. after Second World War (after 27 billion killed men), after Afghanistan (15 000 killed men), after Chechnya (4 000 killed men) Russia like to have war action everytime for having more killed people.

IAmSam: hmm... so why Russia invades Georgia???

Is that supposed to be funny?

Russia invaded Georgia because, supposedly, their 15 'peacekeepers' were killed. Nowhere did I say anything about oil, sorry you thought that was what I was talking about. What I was saying is that Russia had to make up an excuse for invading. What I want to know is were they actually 'peacekeepers' or military advisers?

jacknife737

08-09-2008, 12:09 PM

IamSam

08-09-2008, 12:20 PM

It seems a bit of a muggy situation. Although I tend to lean towards the Georgian side, NY Times is reporting that over 1,500 have been killed thus far, more and more this reeks of Putin grandstanding against the West, I guess on the domestic front it’s already a victory. This is Putin’s “fuck you” to the US for NATO expansion. I cringe every time I read that Russian troops have been described as “peacekeepers”.

Exactly.

And I want to correct something I said earlier, Russia is not a member of NATO, however Georgia has been promised invitation. Russia is a member of the "Partnership For Peace." Apparently they don't care.

Putin has a history of supporting separatist movements and messing with elections. See Ukraine.

1916

08-09-2008, 12:20 PM

Of course the US is going to help Georgia. They are an ally and we have a state named the same name. Russians aren't evil people, however I have never liked Putin and the regime he has put in place. True, Russia had 15 'peacekeepers' in there...but what were they really doing? Russia lies about operations all the time (for further proof, Russian police killed hundreds of innocent civilians at that theater and blamed it on the Chechneans). Please...Russia shouldn't have invaded just like the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq.
ok, man, thank you very much for you mean... i think you right, but not at all...
south osetia population is about (or was) 70 000. all of them had a georgian сitizenship before 1991. there was peaceful between osetinians and georgians people. may be USSR was real evil empire, but people lived in friendship and peace. may be they was poor, but never was against. all was equal.
after 1991 (after USSR), when georgia became independent (FREE) country they start war against south osetia. you can ask why? i don't know reasons of that hate (may be Wiki know). but most of osetinians (about 92%) after that got russian passport for having defend from georgian force. after 1993 in South Osetia was peace (not strong as it wanted, but so peace is better than war). so, know when it started again, Russia defend them citizen.
Georgia's president said some months ago: "You can get your citizens and clear that territory." why osetinians must get out from them territory ???

ad8

08-09-2008, 12:21 PM

I am still very sceptical towards news from both sides. I'd like to hear some neutral comment about it...

IamSam

08-09-2008, 12:25 PM

ok, man, thank you very much for you mean... i think you right, but not at all...
south osetia population is about (or was) 70 000. all of them had a georgian сitizenship before 1991. there was peaceful between osetinians and georgians people. may be USSR was real evil empire, but people lived in friendship and peace. may be they was poor, but never was against. all was equal.
after 1991 (after USSR), when georgia became independent (FREE) country they start war against south osetia. you can ask why? i don't know reasons of that hate (may be Wiki know). but most of osetinians (about 92%) after that got russian passport for having defend from georgian force. after 1993 in South Osetia was peace (not strong as it wanted, but so peace is better than war). so, know when it started again, Russia defend them citizen.
Georgia's president said some months ago: "You can get your citizens and clear that territory." why osetinians must get out from them territory ???

Look, it's not that hard to understand...let me help.

I live in the state of Montana in the US. Now, if Montana was to break away we would have many Canadians in the state. If the US attacked Montana to get it back and some Canadians were killed it would be accidental. It would not give the right for Canada to then attack the state of Washington, 800 miles away from Montana.

Do you see now? I can understand Russian military presence on the border, but I do not see why they are attacking key cities away from Ossetia.

1916

08-09-2008, 12:36 PM

yeah... this very nice... all will say so, like they want to hear it...
what's true ? where's true ? true in actions...

i saw some reports that show in USA about this conflict. if you guys could be know differents between russian military machines and georgians military machines you could see that 'russian' tanks and 'russian' soldiers was in georgian clothes and have american machines.

ok... nevermind... it's all useless. you will trust in that you want trust. continue think about russia that it evil empire... may be sometime it will happened and all our country will fall in hell. i think we have many problems and of course other 'highest' race like american must live easy and happy with sweet (and right) 'democracy' in all world.

i like offspring and i old punk, i dont like inequality and injustice... i dont good like you, dudes, and havent any reasons to be here (between 'highest' people) so have a nice life ! thank you very much for you meanings and wish you peace, clear sky and yellow sun !

IamSam

08-09-2008, 12:44 PM

1916

08-09-2008, 12:50 PM

Do you see now? I can understand Russian military presence on the border, but I do not see why they are attacking key cities away from Ossetia.
oh man... i think that we never will know trust about it, because georgian can show you themself destroying in capitol of Osetia and say that it in some georgian city (like Tbilisi). it's just a star of new type of war - media-war. but later true will be know all... i dont know how you can know true. and me too... we trust in our TV channels and TV news (you in USA, me un Russia)... but TV is part of government...

'invading' russia to georgia is not 'war', so russia dont attack any city or village in georgia and willn't to it still it willn't to be the war. we have international documents and acts for diplomacy...

IamSam

08-09-2008, 12:53 PM

'invading' russia to georgia is not 'war', so russia dont attack any city or village in georgia and willn't to it still it willn't to be the war. we have international documents and acts for diplomacy...

How is Russia invading Georgia not war? Have you not read anything I've wrote? Or do you just not understand? Not being mean, but I understand if you don't understand my English. Russia has bombed targets that aren't even close to Ossetia.

Believe what you want...but the truth is there in front of you.

1916

08-09-2008, 01:10 PM

How is Russia invading Georgia not war? Have you not read anything I've wrote? Or do you just not understand? Not being mean, but I understand if you don't understand my English. Russia has bombed targets that aren't even close to Ossetia.

Believe what you want...but the truth is there in front of you.

man, you sit on the other side of world and say like you know the truth. it's you great right. you country is not one of coflict countries. may be you have real informations from frontline. but russia defend them citizen and defend territory of them citizens without bombs and heavy weapons. president of russia (not Putin now, as you know) didn't declare the war, because if it conflict will be war it will be very hard for many people. now, we just stay on own territory and DIDNT BOMBED TARGETS on territory of Georgia (and key cities too).
it's very comfort - to believe what you want and don't think about real reasons...

IamSam

08-09-2008, 01:21 PM

man, you sit on the other side of world and say like you know the truth. it's you great right. you country is not one of coflict countries. may be you have real informations from frontline. but russia defend them citizen and defend territory of them citizens without bombs and heavy weapons. president of russia (not Putin now, as you know) didn't declare the war, because if it conflict will be war it will be very hard for many people. now, we just stay on own territory and DIDNT BOMBED TARGETS on territory of Georgia (and key cities too).
it's very comfort - to believe what you want and don't think about real reasons...
Are you seriously telling me I shouldn't have an opinion on this matter? You're Kazak! Not Russian! I could tell you to stay out of it too!

I know the truth because the BBC is reporting it as well as many other news organizations. Hell...I even got some info from the Iranian news site.

To say that Russia isn't 'defending' (defending in someone else's country?) people with bombs and heavy weapons is bullshit. Russia has even said they have been bombing targets and lost two tactical aircraft. Russia has even activated the Black Sea fleet!

Either open your eyes and go to news sites and come back here with actual information, or continue to sit in your cave and think that your opinion of 'Great Russia' is actually what is happening in the world.

1916

08-09-2008, 01:36 PM

IamSam

08-09-2008, 01:41 PM

:) ok. i will sit in my cave and continue think about 'Great Russia' (it's real great). come to us and look it yourself (your own eyes) or live in lies. welcome !

if you want to see the truth - come and see it, you can do it.
you see only one version of all news (from one side) and you're not interesting other means... it's ok... it's more comfort...

Dude. I'm done with you. I've already told you that Russia has said itself that they have bombed areas not Ossetia and have lost planes. Don't believe it, but it's there.

Enjoy the cave.

MaF

08-09-2008, 01:53 PM

Osetia is a unrecognized republic. Herd about right of nation to self-determination? That ducked up madman Sakashvili haven't heard bout it.
In russia we've got news in way that
Georgian army eliminates all civil population and destroyin all facilities to make that land unliveable for osetins (which even can make it alive), they shooting in medical transport, killing already hurted and makin other horrors. We've been said that that story bout our jets s just hilarious and stupd. In georgia shut down all russian chanels and ru-domens are under the law too... as russian reporters. And they we've got overall mobilization
And that when they were shootin osetins they've fired on our peacemaker base and so on...
or something in that way....
It's too pity that our president in war time is Medvedev... of course he don't even stand close to Putin...

we've been told bout propaganda in US and how they put the news together and that Sakashvili even speaks english than western reporteers don't have troubles with translation... kinda of joke, imo, but he realy speaks on eng even when he appeals to his people....

P.S. Don't even know how stupid u should be to execute such bullshit orders.... if i were close to Sakashvili when he said " Let's send our troops in Osetia to kill and burn and of course to show how cool we r and show that russians are goddamn faggots and maybe than they finaly take us to NATO" i'd gave him wakener...

1916

08-09-2008, 02:02 PM

Dude. I'm done with you. I've already told you that Russia has said itself that they have bombed areas not Ossetia and have lost planes. Don't believe it, but it's there.

Enjoy the cave.

thanks... here's cold and dark but i have fire and now i'm eating meat of wild bear in my pretty cave and writing message for you on stone notebook.

i want ask, how you can understand what say Russia ? and who can it say? president of russia? or postman from village in russia?
now war's going in media services. all news can be construct from necessary facts and words and you will get informations that will convenient for you government...

1916

08-09-2008, 02:07 PM

P.S. Don't even know how stupid u should be to execute such bullshit orders.... if i were close to Sakashvili when he said " Let's send our troops in Osetia to kill and burn and of course to show how cool we r and show that russians are goddamn faggots and maybe than they finaly take us to NATO" i'd gave him wakener...

it'll be ok. be patient, dude... i think that most of american will not understund us, because they see other version of all news from conflict.

ого ! ну ты разошелся :)

IamSam

08-09-2008, 02:13 PM

Wow. You guys make me laugh. Plus...I've been reading your news and it's funny that it is so weighted towards the Russians being saviors! The BBC is a much more neutral way to get news. They are reporting both sides of the issue. I'm not getting my news from American pathways...wow. Just wow. And you say that your 'President' is in control when Putin is all over the news. Funny...you'd think if the "president" was in control Prime Minister Putin would be out of the picture...

the Alternate

08-09-2008, 02:13 PM

IamSam

08-09-2008, 02:24 PM

Someone of you told us that "the cold war is over"...
And you almost cringe while hearing that russian troops are "peacekeepers".
And who should keep the peace between two fighting sides in that location in the world. Near the Russian border? Maybe United States, Uh?
And what the f**k are US troops doing in Iraq, Afghanistan or maybe Kosovo, guys? Also keeping peace? Maybe because they're too close to US? Isn't it so called "Double standards"?
Have you ever asked yourself, why Georgia is now presented as an "ally" to US? How terrible! OMG, they are hurt by Russia but no one cares about 2000 civillians in Tskhinvali (isn't it a genocide?) and 12 russian soldiers dead and 150 wounded.
I don't know why, maybe it's some sort of ethic or propaganda, but when speaking to people who don't like the Policy of Russia, you always meet double standards applied to the matter.
You can almost fool yourself with statements as "spreading the democracy", of course again by killing people and setting anarchy.

Oh fucking christ.

Not all Americans think the same. I don't support the war in Iraq. I supported the war in Afghanistan because the attacks on my country originated from there. Kosovo was a NATO mission and the US is there to stop the hotheaded people of the region from trying to 'cleanse' each other. US forces aren't the only ones that have been there.

Plus, once you invade a country like Iraq and damage it all to hell...isn't it the nice thing to do to try and help them back onto their feet instead of just walking away?

Russian 'peacekeepers' in an area that is disputed and having a 'compound' is a little fishy. As is the Russian military being right there to rush into Ossetia. Plus, no one has commented on the fact that Russia bombed the port city of Poti!

Georgia is an ally to the US. If you don't forget, Russia and the US were friendly during the Yeltsin years but then Putin came in and flipped the entire situation.

Stop making this a US versus Russia issue. This is a muddy mess and I want clarity and for it to stop. Not a goddamn pissing match between the US and Russia.

adombomb222

08-09-2008, 02:39 PM

1916 is a troll, just like those Turkish guys that came up during the Armenian Genocide threads. Ignore him, he can't even type.

the_GoDdEsS

08-09-2008, 02:44 PM

1916 is a troll, just like those Turkish guys that came up during the Armenian Genocide threads. Ignore him, he can't even type.

Do not discriminate against people just because they don´t speak your language well. He is definitely not a troll for presenting the other side of the story. Anyway, so what is your contribution to the actual topic?

IamSam

08-09-2008, 02:49 PM

Do not discriminate against people just because they don´t speak your language well. He is definitely not a troll for presenting the other side of the story. Anyway, so what is your contribution to the actual topic?

No. Adombomb is right. 1916 has brought nothing into this thread other than a really convoluted outlook on reality. His language skills are a problem because we can't tell what he is really saying. And you should answer your own question...what are you contributing other than trying to defend someone who makes no sense?

EDIT: I just realized that my post was very angry sounding, and I apologize. I'm just frustrated with the fact that people believe they are open minded and then side with one side of an argument and blame me as if I'm President Bush. All apologies. But I do stand by my thoughts of 1916.

the_GoDdEsS

08-09-2008, 02:56 PM

And you should answer your own question...what are you contributing other than trying to defend someone who makes no sense?

Call it a moderation remark. Telling somebody "Ignore him, he can´t even type." and disregarding all their views in such manner just because they speak English as a foreign language and in a different alphabet does not seem correct.

1916

08-09-2008, 03:01 PM

1) Are you seiously think that ONE and ONLY Ossama bin Laden was guilt in 9/11 ? It was big planned operations. It was too difficult for one organization like AL-Khaida. i think that some organizations and departments (with government) of america can be guilt in that tragic events too. isn't it ? Prove and give reason for against...

2) Yugoslavia (as it named at that times) was not in EU or in NATO, when started problem in kosovo. it was problem inside the country... still somebody from the West didn't come to Serbia. there wasn't citizens of any country from EU or NATO. people of Serbia could solve them problem themselfes and tragedy could be less, than it was with 'help' from USA and UK (other EU countries has not so much influence on situation).

3) South Osetia for Russia is not Iraq for USA. We don't attack independent country. If we could start war somewhere like in Honduras may be you could be say that it similar, but now it not so.

4) Why nobody comment situation in Poti ? Because there is still never was. Or you was there and see it already ? hmm... sorry man if i wrong. but if you know news only from BBC and something like CNN, it's mean nothing...

5) And for sweet ! Ask russian people. Most of them say you, that they live better in Putin time than in Yeltsin. Yeltsin was everytime drunk and we didn't have any power for defend our territory. it was very comfort for USA. of course, Yeltsin was better for USA. but why we must choose russian president that will be comfort for you (for americans), not for russian citizens ? now we have mostly better social guarantees than earlier...

6) I think we guys should to try heavy metal...

Resume: i agree with you last words of you message. i want to say you this: "Not all is truth that you can know from internet and TV. Especially now about russia from USA (or Georgia)." We say: "Better poor peace than good war." so, let's be patient and more understanding to each other... we equal, and try to be one of people of the world, not one of people of your country... i will try to do it too...
amene

IamSam

08-09-2008, 03:02 PM

Call it a moderation remark. Telling somebody "Ignore him, he can´t even type." and disregarding all their views in such manner just because they speak English as a foreign language and in a different alphabet does not seem correct.

Ah! Understood! I didn't realize you were a moderator...I've never seen you around that I can remember. I can see what you were doing...adombomb was slightly out of line...but 1916 should get some of the blame by insulting me by making stereotypical remarks involving Americans, which I'm somewhat offended by.

1916

08-09-2008, 03:04 PM

1916 is a troll, just like those Turkish guys that came up during the Armenian Genocide threads. Ignore him, he can't even type.

:) yeah, i'm troll... and i'm living in the cave...

jacknife737

08-09-2008, 03:08 PM

adombomb222

08-09-2008, 03:11 PM

Call it a moderation remark. Telling somebody "Ignore him, he can´t even type." and disregarding all their views in such manner just because they speak English as a foreign language and in a different alphabet does not seem correct.

I was saying ignore him because the way he's posting is simmilar to posts I've seen before in another thread.

1916

08-09-2008, 03:11 PM

Raptor88

08-09-2008, 03:39 PM

Well, i understand the matter like this:

Osettia became somewhat independent country (but not recognised by UN) in early ninties. Georgia attacked Ossetia's citizens (most of them Russian) and media reports that more than 1500 people in Ossetia were slaughtered since hostilities began. Russia then invaded Ossetia and also bombed some strategic and civilian targets in Georgia to answer the Georgian attack.

I think that Georgia was trying to deffend (or gain back) the land they lost, but that can not be an excuse for killing 1500 civilians. On the other hand, if Russia wanted to deffent Russian citizens in Ossetia, why did they attack Georgian civillian targets?

I'm a bit skeptical about what media say. The best way to get a picture of what is really going on there is to find an alternative, indipendend news source, not the source from any of involved countries. I am not on either's side, but i do think that this is some serious problem, that could lead to another big war, not only between those three countries.

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 03:40 PM

ok. sorry dudes, that i can't speak well... i think that my skills in english is really poor... i'll try to learn it more.
and now, i wish you well and happy time, and i hope you'll never see the war you own eyes.

There's something about this poor, broken English that makes it tantalisingly sweet, touching, fragile, delicate.

Poetic. *weeps as she writes*

Raptor: so you think other countries care about Ossetia other than Georgia and Russia? Cause it seems to me that, save from the peacekeeping corps, they would definitely avoid taking sides so as not to fuel the conflict. History repeats itself, but nations learn from their mistakes - that, and the Monroe doctrine.

IamSam

08-09-2008, 03:51 PM

Raptor88

08-09-2008, 04:03 PM

Exactly what's happening. That's why I use BBC (slightly biased) and the AP which normally gives only the facts and both sides of the issues.

I'll remember this when i want to check out any news about the problem. They report about it on the news in my country (Slovenia) too, and they usually aren't that bad, they report both sides of the story. Today this was the first news on the TV, the second was a severe storm that missed my village only by a few kilometers (hail storm, hail stones in the size of a man's fist destroyed everything, but anyway this is off-topic).

I hope that the problem will be peacefully resolved, i do not wish to see another war start. As i said this could lead to a massive war (if NATO and US would possibly involve, and if Russia found more allies for fighting), and this would not be good.

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 04:05 PM

And Raptor: is that usage of the word "country" proper for Ossetia? If not recognised by the UN... ought it to be used at all?

Also, I'm gutted at 1916 going "oh the wonders Putin did for us, just compare his time with the Yeltsin era and see the path he's carved for us".

Yeah? Yeah, brainwashed you've been, my love. For one thing, what is so better with Putin? The illusion of power? The fantasy that you matter on the big political scene? The only reason you matter at all, my glassy-eyed Russian mate, is the oil bonanza. Second, Putin's grab of power seems fine to you people, everyone knows that. Everyone knows you don't mind having him arrest innocent people whose only wrong is their stance against the one-party rule. Everyone knows you'd rather pay the mafia their due than protest against a poor democracy, so long as you THINK YOU MATTER. So long as you think the West detests you. So long as you think the US is trying to wrestle you into compliance.

Which is why your fellow Russians are buying up my land, sob, in all the nice little places in the south, Nice, Courchevel.... Sob. All the well-heeled Russians here you eventually find they're either banished millionaires or mafia-related. A nightmare. There's not a decent rich Russian on our soil. Not only is that an everyday fact, it's also analysed in the press. Ossetia may or may not be a breakaway enclave, it's still being INVADED by Russia... you people spread like the plague.

Point is, however much of a drunken cuntwipe Yeltsin might have been, he was nowhere, nowhere near as autocratic as Putin, were it only for that he would deserve respect. I'm amazed at how a great mind like Solzhenitsyn could possibly have any respect for Putin and criticise the West the way he did in his years in exile. But any look at Putin's recent breaking down of the mining or oil industry (Yukos might ring a bell... well it's happening all over again, and nobody seems to mind) points him out for the megalomaniac he really is.

Raptor88

08-09-2008, 04:09 PM

And Raptor: is that usage of the word "country" proper for Ossetia? If not recognised by the UN... ought it to be used at all?

Well, actually i'm not sure about this, but i didn't find any better word for it. Anyway, we all know what this is about, so it shouldn't be very confusive.

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 04:15 PM

That just shows a little bias, in an insidious way.

In my lovely French news, they call the region "South Ossetia"... and as our president is now president of the EU for the time being, he's sending our lovely foreign minister to settle things nicely. While the Baltian countries and Poland have been calling Russia "imperialist", our lovely minister has said that "it's no use insulting people". That Russia must cease bombing innocent people and that Georgia should quit being so provoking.

In short, they all call for a going-back on previous positions, with total integrity of Georgian territory preserved.

Raptor88

08-09-2008, 04:33 PM

That just shows a little bias, in an insidious way.

I've already said i'm not on either's side. English is not my first language, and i couldn't find any better words to describe what Ossetia had become in early ninties - they see themselves as a country, but they are not recognised by others. Besides, i wrote "somewhat independent country", which is more in a descriptive way of South Ossetia's situation.

Everything clear now?

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 04:42 PM

You're a touch testy, hmph. It was clear before. I wasn't attacking you. We all are biased, even when we profess we are not. We all have ethnic backgrounds, for good or ill. What matters is how much aware of this we are, and to what degree we keep our trigger-happy reactions in check.

1916, any thoughts? In effect, with your "I heart Putin" stance, you are condoning what is neither more nor less than an invasion. Such infringements of freedom do not sit particularly badly with you, evidently. Well, I am glad our government sees otherwise and is going to pick up the pieces and work towards a peaceful end of this carnage.

Raptor88

08-09-2008, 05:06 PM

You're a touch testy, hmph. It was clear before. I wasn't attacking you.

No, i didn't mean you were attacking me - i just wanted to clear everything out :)

But well, you are right, in some way we are probably all a little biased. I feel sorry and find terrible that 1500 people died, and that might have put me a bit on Ossetian's side. But i always try to look over all facts, and because of them i'm still more neutral to this situation.

Through the history there were several rebellions of Ossetians during which they demanded indipendency. On the other hand, the land was Georgian, and now they wanted to gain it back, which is a good counter argument for Ossetia's supporters. And Russia shouldn't attack civillian targets in Georgia because of what happened in Ossetia, they should only interfere in Ossetia if anywhere. Each country (South Ossetia included) is right to some point:

Ossetia: They have Russian citizenship, and they have been demanding independency for a long time.
Georgia: They wanted to defend their country's soil
Russia: They wanted to help Russian citizens in South Ossetia.

BUT also each country is wrong somewhere:

Ossetia: While they are Russian citizens, they are still living on Georgia's soil
Georgia: No need for slaughtering of 1500 or more civilians
Russia:They should interfere only in Ossetia, no need to attack civillian targets in Georgia, they should ONLY attack nearby military strategic targets IF ANY.

This is my opinion of the situation.

MaF

08-09-2008, 05:22 PM

And Raptor: is that usage of the word "country" proper for Ossetia? If not recognised by the UN... ought it to be used at all?
Yeah? Yeah, brainwashed you've been, my love. For one thing, what is so better with Putin? The illusion of power? The fantasy that you matter on the big political scene? The only reason you matter at all, my glassy-eyed Russian mate, is the oil bonanza. Second, Putin's grab of power seems fine to you people, everyone knows that. Everyone knows you don't mind having him arrest innocent people whose only wrong is their stance against the one-party rule. Everyone knows you'd rather pay the mafia their due than protest against a poor democracy, so long as you THINK YOU MATTER. So long as you think the West detests you. So long as you think the US is trying to wrestle you into compliance.

Which is why your fellow Russians are buying up my land, sob, in all the nice little places in the south, Nice, Courchevel.... Sob. All the well-heeled Russians here you eventually find they're either banished millionaires or mafia-related. A nightmare. There's not a decent rich Russian on our soil. Not only is that an everyday fact, it's also analysed in the press. Ossetia may or may not be a breakaway enclave, it's still being INVADED by Russia... you people spread like the plague.

Point is, however much of a drunken cuntwipe Yeltsin might have been, he was nowhere, nowhere near as autocratic as Putin, were it only for that he would deserve respect. I'm amazed at how a great mind like Solzhenitsyn could possibly have any respect for Putin and criticise the West the way he did in his years in exile. But any look at Putin's recent breaking down of the mining or oil industry (Yukos might ring a bell... well it's happening all over again, and nobody seems to mind) points him out for the megalomaniac he really is.

That's whole bunch of raving.
Now my position as Moscovite :)
1st. Yeltsin was drunk bastard. He gave the controll of all big goverment property (factories, enterprises, etc) to his goddamn friends that were REAL F@ckin bandits. We've got shooting in the lights of day. That was scarry and terrible time. There were no law, except the law of that bustards. And than, when that clown left his president post land breathed with relief.
2nd. There s no such thing as one main party. Everybody knows that it sux, but it's the better we have and we can't do any better, cause all of our oppositions are comunists, clowns or massons! Got u dizzy, yeah? That's our parties....
3rd. I don't know of any goverment criminal against "contra" Again, it's just ridiculous... it's not the time of our civil war or Stalin or whatever. There s no such thing as "innocent people whose only wrong is their stance against the one-party rule.". He jailed some everyonehated bandits from Eltsin gang to get more respect from wide masses...
4th. About buyin land etc... u know, most (99.99) of russians simply can't do it... and those who can that's the one from Eltsin's gang... and so on, and so on....
And Soljenitsin was cracked on idea of god and that your faith in him makes u better and that jail makes u better and that all russian goverment sucks, cause it broke his life (yeah, that's one true). He didn't have any good relations with Putin. It's clearly appears at his funeral...

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 05:26 PM

Raptor: you're trying to be "fair" with the nations, but you're really outraged by the massacres.

Understandable. However, you can't make everybody happy.

My government's stance - and more largely of the EU - is to primarily NOT let this war escalate. To defuse it, if possible. To blow cool air on it. Now, they all are rather wary of Russia, and rightly so, but they all agree that Georgia is not blameless and carry the onus of most of the prior attacks. Additionally, Moscow stands to lose a lot in terms of credibility for peace efforts if they don't retreat now. And they don't seem to be wanting to at present. How veritably odd.

On top of it this is going to spread (to Abkhazia and other breakaway provinces) and soon we'll have a whole host of would-be countries on our hands.

And blowing cool air just won't cut it. While I can't imagine the outset of WW3 is nigh upon us, this is definitely more than a powderkeg. But if Russia just kept quiet instead of hogging the limelight as they do - because that way Putin can snigger "see, see how they do detest us? they're dismissing our rightful claims!" to his people - all this warfare could die down soon enough.

MAF: oh please. Your land is corrupt, your officials are greedy and Putin commandeers murders (Litvinenko, hmm?) firsthand. Also, the arrest of Kasparov should have shaken you up not a little.

Source: The Economist.

As communism collapsed, his[Solzhenitsyn] books, once read only in flimsy, blurred carbon copies, could all be published legally inside the Soviet Union. But he detested the man who brought that about: Boris Yeltsin, the first freely-elected leader in Russia’s history, spurning his offer of a state decoration. He could not, he said accept honours from a man who had brought misery on his people.

To the consternation of some of his supporters, he[Solzhenitsyn] did accept an award from the ex-KGB officer who became Mr Yeltsin’s successor, Vladimir Putin. He even seemed to downplay Mr Putin’s role in the KGB, saying that every country needed an intelligence service. Yet, although he praised the self-respect and stability that Russia had regained under Mr Putin, he remained deeply critical of its politics and the corruption and greed that capitalism had exposed and fuelled.

And about your practices:

To assert his supremacy Mr Putin chose Mechel, a steel giant listed in New York, with a market value of $15.2 billion. On July 24th Mr Putin publicly accused Mechel and its main shareholder, Igor Zyuzin, of selling its coking coal abroad more cheaply than at home and dodging taxes. He was particularly irritated that Mr Zyuzin, who was summoned to a government meeting, was said to be ill. “Of course, illness is illness, but I think he should get well as soon as possible. Otherwise, we will have to send him a doctor and clean up all the problems,” said Mr Putin. Perhaps the prosecution office and anti-monopoly service should investigate, he added.

Mr Putin’s medical advice had an immediate effect: Mechel’s share price plummeted, wiping some $5 billion off the firm’s value and prompting a dramatic fall in Russia’s stockmarket. The episode stirred memories of Yukos, once Russia’s largest oil company, which was destroyed by crippling claims for back taxes. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Yukos’s former boss, is still in jail and his assets are now part of Rosneft, a state-controlled oil firm chaired by Igor Sechin, Mr Putin’s trusted aide. The sense of déjà vu was enhanced by the fact that it was Mr Sechin who apparently briefed his boss about Mechel’s behaviour.

Mr Putin’s attack seemed to take Mr Medvedev and his circle by surprise. A senior adviser to Mr Medvedev tried to calm nerves, noting that Mechel was co-operating with the anti-monopoly investigation, which would strictly obey the rule of law. “We should be especially careful about our market, which is becoming important for ordinary people who invest their money in shares and bonds,” he said.

But Mr Putin would have none of it. A few hours later he told his ministers, in front of television cameras, that Mechel fixed prices, evaded taxes and pushed up inflation, harming the Russian people. This stirred memories of Stalin’s denunciations of “saboteurs” and knocked another third off the company’s value. The next day an explosion in one of Mechel’s mines injured 17 people, and the environmental agency launched an investigation.

MaF

08-09-2008, 05:35 PM

Ossetia: While they are Russian citizens, they are still living on Georgia's soil
Georgia: No need for slaughtering of 1500 or more civilians
Russia:They should interfere only in Ossetia, no need to attack civillian targets in Georgia, they should ONLY attack nearby military strategic targets IF ANY.

This is my opinion of the situation.

I'm not sure about that that's soil belongs to georgia. Osetins lived here much more longer... and that perturbation with soviet union and that carving after it crushed.... imo, be better if that soil woul belong to native inhabbitans... and north osetia belongs to russia... south to georgia... what the mess! What were they thinkin?

They atacked? :confused: heared nothing of it... maby that accident was... maby... what am i saying? It's imposible! It's just like if i got the knife and kill my cousin! We've lived too many time together just to start nible our own throats....

P.S. U know, i hate patriots, but here i can't leave my country undefended.. paradox!

Also as we seen in news our soldiers mostly evacuate and protect civils... also we're gettin examples of news from georgia (that shows Sakashwili as 3rd Hitler) and from America (that looks like starstripped propaganda). That's how it looks from our borders. And also there was one chapter (?) when georgian soldiers fire at unarmed man, he hides behinf the building and they're going after him on tank... keep shootin.... brrrrrrr

2 1916
Просто к слову, у меня родня в Казахстане есть. По отцу. :).
Блин, качаем права на форуме поп-панковской группы... кстати, это круто, что у них есть такие ветки на форуме.
(Translate: It's amazin that The Offspring got political thread...and it's strange that i demand's russia's right here)

And onemore we've got also news that goverment of Kiev (Yustchenko himself) supports Georgia. And also that there was large weapon supplies to georgia from ukraine... and that there's traditional (beter say periodical) split on followers of russian and american tale.

Raptor88

08-09-2008, 06:00 PM

Raptor: you're trying to be "fair" with the nations, but you're really outraged by the massacres.

Understandable. However, you can't make everybody happy.

Unfortunately you are right, it's impossible to make everyone happy. I need time to get through the rest of your post though, it's really long but full of information :)

I'm not sure about that that's soil belongs to georgia. Osetins lived here much more longer... and that perturbation with soviet union and that carving after it crushed.... imo, be better if that soil woul belong to native inhabbitans...

They atacked? :confused: heared nothing of it... maby that accident was... maby... what am i saying? It's imposible! It's just like if i got the knife and kill my cousin! We've lived too many time together just to start nible our own throats....

P.S. U know, i hate patriots, but here i can't leave my country undefended.. paradox!

Also as we seen in news our soldiers mostly evacuate and protect civils... also we're gettin examples of news from georgia (that lookin as Sakashwili is 3rd Hitler) and from America (that looks like starstripped propaganda). That's how it looks from our borders. And also there was one chapter (?) when georgian soldiers fire at unarmed man, he hides behinf the building and they're going after him on tank... keep shootin.... brrrrrrr

Well, you made a good point, Ossetian's live on that land longer than Georgia possesses it. However, in time of the attack it still was considered Georgian soil, because Ossetia is not recognised as an independent country. But naturally the Ossetian's want independency. Slovenia (my country) was in similar situation in early ninties (similar situation in that we wanted independency), when we fought our freedom (not me literally, i was 3 at the time), we separated from Yugoslavia. However, Slovenia was a republic before, we lived on our own soil, just were not independent, so other than wanting independency our situation was much different than situation in Ossetia now.

But i have heard on the news too that Russia attacked targets in Georgia (bombed), and that interference was wrong, they should only help in Ossetia. I think that the massacre Georgians did was just inexceptable.

I think it's best if this matter would be sort out peacefully, because more killings would lead nowhere.

Duskygrin

08-09-2008, 06:01 PM

Stranger still that you can serve up so much bull and think we'll all be your dupes. Well, I don't know about posters on Offspring BBS, but Russia isn't fooling EU governments.

- Last month Russia sent military aircraft in Georgian airspace... to deter an attack, it said.

- we all know Georgia got awful bad press in Russia - western stooge, etc.

- Georgia is vital as a corridor for oil and gas exports to Europe

- Putin is an asshole

- Tensions have been rising in Abkhazia too, and this province would be of so much more vital strategic interest for Russia, as it has key position on the Black Sea coast

- Russia is playing the card of "aggrieved status" while the west has dim vue of Georgia (recent stampdown of opposition)

So please will you stop the fucking bull about "it'd be like killing my cousins! how COULD they? An unarmed man! chasing him with tanks"

You're ridiculous. Alternatively, you're a good GI of a Russian citizen.

adombomb222

08-10-2008, 12:47 AM

Personal News Update: My family member who works and lives in Georgia has been out of the country visiting family in Ireland. So she is safe.

the Alternate

08-10-2008, 03:36 AM

2 Duskygrin & Co.: how brainwashed are you, my dear!)))
In my view, it's a bit stupid and naive to think that Yeltsin made Russia friendly and Putin did the opposite. To clear it a bit, I'll tell you that Yeltsin made everything he could to hear western leaders say that "Russia is a friend". But the other side of the medal was that he threw Russia to great inequality, poverty, criminal and totally forgot about Russian national strategic interests.
In early 90s Russian Foreign affairs policy was extremely weak and that was a very wanted thing to US and Nato cause that time they can do anything they wanted in the world. And it's not that hard to understand, why are western countries so unhappy to see a firm, strong, clear and reasonable (from the opposite point) position of Russia. So the other way to resist it is to call for old fears of population and associate Putin's policy with the Cold War. If done, and people believe it, they won't hear anything reasonable because of their fear, and they will support everything anti-Russian that is done by the governments.
The other consequence is that you'll never get an independent source of news. Everybody is lying. I don't believe everything told in Russian media (Abkhazians and Ossetians aren't very good guys) but I don't believe a thing told by the Georgians. I'm quite sure that this operation in Ossetia was totally planned and prepared by the Georgians up to what will be told to media in case Russia will protect its soldiers there (who definitely prevented Ossetians and Georgians from killing each other).
I think that the news that Russian aircraft are bombing civillians is a bullshit isteria of Georgian government because there's no reason for that. Russia doesn't want Georgian people to vote joining NATO.

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 04:01 AM

To everyone who says that "Russia bobming Georgia is bullshit" and that "Russia didn't attack Georgia". How do you know YOU haven't been brainwashed? Try to find an alternative source of news, not the source that may be cotrolled by your government. Because i don't believe any news that comes directly from any of the involved countries untill i hear an independent news source confirm that.

edit: all those who say Russia didn't attack Georgia, read my next post

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 06:17 AM

The latest news (found on Yahoo):

Russia expands bombing blitz in Georgia By DAVID NOWAK, Associated Press Writer
7 minutes ago

Russia expanded its bombing blitz Sunday against neighboring U.S.-allied Georgia, targeting the country's capital for the first time while Georgian troops pulled out of the breakaway province of South Ossetia, as Russia has demanded.

Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia says that Georgian troops have relocated to new positions outside South Ossetia.

"They are outside the region entirely," he said in a telephone conference.

Russia has demanded that Georgia pull out its troops from South Ossetia as a condition to negotiate a cease-fire. It also urged Georgia to sign a pledge not to use force against South Ossetia as another condition for ending hostilities.

Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said that Moscow now needs to verify the Georgian withdrawal. "We must check all that. We don't trust the Georgian side," he said.

Russian jets raided a plant on the eastern outskirts of Tbilisi that builds Su-25 ground jets used in the conflict by Georgia, a U.S. ally whose troops have been trained by American soldiers. The attack damaged runways but caused no casualties, said Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.

"We heard a plane go over and then a big explosion," said Malkhaz Chachanidze, a 41-year old ceramics artist whose house is located just outside the fence of the factory, which has been running since the Soviet era. "It woke us up, everything shook."

The risk of the conflict setting off a wider war increased when Russian-supported separatists in another Georgia's breakaway region, Abkhazia, launched air and artillery strikes on Georgian troops to drive them out of a small part of the province they control. Fifteen U.N. military observers were told to evacuate.

Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow. Russia has granted its passports to most of their residents.

In yet another sign that the conflict could widen, Ukraine warned Russia on Sunday it could bar Russian navy ships from returning to their base in the Crimea because of their deployment to Georgia's coast.

Russian jets have been roaming Georgia's skies since Friday. They raided several air bases and bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

The Russian warplanes also struck near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline which carries Caspian crude to the West, but no supply interruptions have been reported.

Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili called it an "unprovoked brutal Russian invasion."

President Bush called for an end to the Russian bombings and an immediate halt to the violence.

"The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia. They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis," Bush said in a statement to reporters while attending the Olympic Games in Beijing.

Jim Jeffrey, Bush's deputy national security adviser, warned that "if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues, that this will have a significant long-term impact on U.S.-Russian relations."

A Russian raid on Gori near South Ossetia Saturday which apparently targeted a military base on the town's outskirts left numerous civilian casualties.

An Associated Press reporter who visited the town shortly after the strike saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.

Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.

"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.

The U.N. Security Council met for the third time since late Thursday night to try to help resolve the situation. Another meeting requested by Georgia was scheduled for Sunday afternoon.

Georgia launched the major offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday.

Lavrov told reporters Saturday that some 1,500 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, with the death toll rising. The figures could not be independently confirmed.

But residents of the South Ossentian provincial capital Tskhinvali who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were lying everywhere.

Lomaia, Georgia's Security Council chief, estimated that Russia sent 2,500 troops into Georgia.

In Saturday's meeting with refugees in the city of Vladikavkaz across the border, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin described Georgia's actions as "complete genocide. Putin also said Georgia had effectively lost the right to rule the breakaway province — an indication Moscow could be preparing to fulfill South Ossetians' wish to be absorbed into Russia.

Georgia's Foreign Ministry said the country was "in a state of war" and accused Russia of beginning a "massive military aggression." The Georgian parliament approved a state of martial law, mobilizing reservists and ordering government authorities to work round-the-clock.

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev said that Moscow sent troops into South Ossetia to protect its peacekeepers and civilians on a mission to "enforce peace." He said that Russia would seek to bring the Georgian attackers to criminal responsibility.

Medvedev said he was ordering the military prosecutor to document crimes against civilians in South Ossetia.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Today, Russia has approximately 30 times more people than Georgia and 240 times the area.

Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on Washington, which has trained Georgian troops. Washington, in turned, blamed Russia.

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Bush had spoken with both Medvedev and Saakashvili. But it was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting — both claim the other violated a cease-fire declared Thursday.

Georgia said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, including four brought down Saturday, according to Lomaia. It also claimed to have captured two Russian pilots, who were shown on Georgian television.

Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the General Staff, confirmed Saturday that two Russian planes had been shot down, but did not say where or when.

Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers have been killed and about 150 wounded in South Ossetia, accusing Georgian troops of killing and wounding Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. The allegations couldn't be independently confirmed.

In Abkhazia, the separatist government said it intended to push Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.

Separatist forces also were concentrating on the border with Georgia's Zugdidi region, and Russia's NTV television reported that additional Russian troops landed in Abkhazia Sunday, heading in the same direction.

Russia also has sent a naval squadron to blockade Georgia's Black Sea coast, the Interfax news agency reported. A Russian Navy spokesman refused to comment on the report.

Lomaia, the Georgian security chief, confirmed that Russia has imposed what he called an "illegal blockade" on Georgia and turned back several ships with humanitarian supplies.

Lomaia said that Georgian administrative buildings and two villages in Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge were bombed by Russians. He said there were no casualties.

Lomaia said that Russians also raided a Georgian military facility in the Zugdidi region just south of Abkhazia, inflicting no casualties.

___

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia; Douglas Birch on the Russian-Georgian border; George Abdaladze in Gori, Georgia; and Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov and Lynn Berry in Moscow contributed to this report.

Now Abkhazia is resisting too and wants to break away from Georgia. What are your thoughts?

wheelchairman

08-10-2008, 06:54 AM

I've long since stopped reading the debates here, but before I stopped I wanted to correct some points of views.

At first, about why most of Ossetian people are Russian citizens via passports. That wasn't a purposed action by the government but it is consequences of the law of Russian Federation that was accepted in early 90s and which tells that "everyone who has a Soviet passport to be able to exchange it to Russian passport at his own will". In early 90s Ossetians and Abkhazians rejected to get Georgian passports and remained with Soviet. According to Russian legislation, everyone who had Soviet citizenship can get Russian at will.

Perhaps, but this is typical of many nations involved in similar conflicts. Ukraine offered passports to all citizens of Transnistria (I think, it was years ago I heard about this). I mean it's a typical way to undermine the opposing governmental institutions. And that's really what it's all about.

Stop right there. The United States after the Cold War has attempted to play nice with Russia. We've even helped to include them in NATO. It's Russia, or Putin for that matter, that is trying his hardest to alienate his country from the world once again.
In international conflicts it's rather futile to make one side an angel, or really even to support one side over another. The US does what any good nation does and is trying to protect it's long term interests, that's also exactly what Russia is doing.

MaF

08-10-2008, 07:00 AM

2Duskygrin

Only now admit that г said something to me and, oh man! That's so boring! I started to read and fail to end. Even the funniest surename as Z'uzin can't force me to read it all.
Don't know what are u talking about... got short memory, maby that was and so? We need to вуаутв our interests.

Hermit

08-10-2008, 07:42 AM

Ossetia is a breakaway part of Georgia. It broke away during the 1990's and is not recognized by the UN.

Map of South Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:South_ossetia_english.png)

As you can see here, Ossetia is in Georgia. Georgia invaded to take it back, Russia got all indignant and in there space because some Russian citizens live there. It would be like a small part of France rebelled, France invaded it to take it back and there were German citizens there, so Germany invaded France and bombed Paris.

Read the History, Macho:

South Ossetia

South Ossetia covers 3.900 square km and in 1989 had 99.000 inhabitants, 66 percent Ossets and 29 percent Georgians. Rural population among Ossets: 34 per cent (1989).

Revolutionary activity had began in South Ossetia as early as 1903. S. Kirov directed Bolshevik activities in the region from 1909, and shortly after the outbreak of the February Revolution a soviet was formed at Vladikavkaz.

The South Ossetia became a part of the Georgian Menshevik Republic with the break up of the Russian empire in 1918, while the North formed a part of the Terek Soviet Republic.

Fierce fighting took place in The North Caucasus during the ensuing civil war (1918-21) and in January , 1919 white forces of General Denikin occupied North Ossetia . In late March, 1920, however, Vladikavkaz fell to the Red Army , and on November 17, 1920 northern Ossetia was included in the newly formed Mountain ASSR as the Ossetian Okrug . On July 7, 1924 Osetia was reorganized as the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and on December 5, 1936, as the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. The south Ossetian Oblast was organized within the Georgian republic on April 20,1922.

In 1936, North Ossetia was upgraded to Autonomous Republic, which in fact had no meaning during Stalin's dictatorship. The Ossetians were loyal to the Soviet Union during World War II, when the Germans pressed to reach the oil fields of Baku and Grozny. After the war they were rewarded in that their republic was enlarged at the expense of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and Stavropol krai. The Muslim Digor Ossets, however, were deported to Central Asia.

In 1989, in the freedom of glasnost and Perestroika and frightened by rising Georgian nationalism, the South Ossetians demanded unification with North Ossetia. In December the next year, the Georgian Parliament declared that South Ossetia was no longer autonomous and authorized suppression of newspapers and bans on demonstrations. One issue at stake was the language. Georgian was declared as official language. The Ossetians declared Osetian as the official language of South Ossetia. Fighting commenced in January 1991. During the fighting, South Ossetians were drained of a large part of their population. It is difficult to estimate the number of inhabitants in today's South Ossetia. Most Georgians who lived in the republic left for Georgia proper, and only a few small enclaves in South Ossetia are still inhabited by Georgians

More than 100.000 Ossets fled from Georgia and South Ossetia to North Ossetia. The fighting ended in July 1992 when a cease-fire, at the initiative of Russian President Yeltsin, was agreed and a peacekeeping force of Ossets, Georgians and Russians was set up. The agreement is being observed by the CSCE in Tbilissi. But since then little progress has been made. South Ossetia is in a situation of permanent economic crisis and there is a lack of almost everything including jobs, clothes, food heating and electricity. Schools and universities are closed because of lack of heating and books. The situation is worsened by Georgia cutting electricity supplies, which has led to North Ossetia running an electric cable from Russia through the mountain range.

The conflict has resulted in increasing South Ossetia claims for a reunification with North Ossetia and for a stronger affiliation with the North Caucasian ethnic groups and republics.
These claims are supported by North Ossetia and by the Confederation of Peoples of the Caucasus. The Confederation, after the success in the Abkhaz war, threatened Georgia with war if she repeats military action against South Ossetia.

Duskygrin

08-10-2008, 08:15 AM

Russia is in no way interested in annexing South Ossetia to North Ossetia. It is of much more interest to Russia to continue wreaking havoc, the better to "prove" that Georgia is not ready to enter NATO.

Additionally, Russia may well do without the support of the EU and keep on waging war, while Georgia has to all intents and purposes unilaterally declared a ceasefire.

It is my understanding that South Ossetia is home to smugglers keen on pocketing Russian aid money. How embarrassing.

And whilst it may all be fine and dandy for a country to look after its long-term self-interests, just like any individual is free to look after themselves, it is no way commensurate to wielding imperialistic power, just like it is just not on for an individual to encroach on someone else's freedom.

wheelchairman

08-10-2008, 08:24 AM

And whilst it may all be fine and dandy for a country to look after its long-term self-interests, just like any individual is free to look after themselves, it is no way commensurate to wielding imperialistic power, just like it is just not on for an individual to encroach on someone else's freedom.

An individual is restricted by authority (the state and it's institutions, not to mention also encouraged to be a good citizen, carrot and stick), whereas there is no binding international authority, therefore it's everyone for themselves. It might not be just, but then there is no international justice really either.

Duskygrin

08-10-2008, 08:42 AM

The only reason we haven't yet taught Russia a good lesson in international manners is because we are so dependent on oil and gas that we would first bend over backwards in a desperate endeavour to pussyfoot round sanctions.

the Alternate

08-10-2008, 08:52 AM

Perhaps, but this is typical of many nations involved in similar conflicts. Ukraine offered passports to all citizens of Transnistria (I think, it was years ago I heard about this). I mean it's a typical way to undermine the opposing governmental institutions. And that's really what it's all about.

yes it is. But here the subject isn't something that outstands from the general. Look, the law was purposed to let any citizen of Soviet Union, a predcessor to Russian Federation, to become a citizen of Russia. When it was accepted it didn't suppose any conflicts. There is no special purpose in it. No one offered the passports but it is not legitime to reject.

2 Rator88: Now the war is not only in the fields but informational too. Of course Georgia will use anything to seem a victim. But it's their fault. They first began a large scaled war and now should pay the consequences.

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 09:37 AM

Now that i've done some more research i found something in favour of Georgia: the land that is now called South Ossetia seems to be Georgian in the first place (see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samachablo), so i don't find it weird if they want to gain it back. However, the massacre of 1500 people still bothers me, this is absolutely the wrong way to solve this problem. And russia doesn't seem to act properly with their attack on Georgia - they are attacking civillian targets also, not only military targets.

I stay in neutral position, because neither of the country is acting completely right to solve the matter.

UFO

08-10-2008, 09:53 AM

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 10:05 AM

Duskygrin - The only reason we haven't yet taught Russia a good lesson in international manners is because we are so dependent on oil and gas that we would first bend over backwards in a desperate endeavour to pussyfoot round sanctions.

You said it like political prostitute.

Georgia used forbidden weapon to attack South Ossetia ( mean heavy artilery "Hailstones", killed about 2000 citizens. So who will help this people, fucking NATO. WE are protecting our brothers and sisters at present moment.
Russia invades Georgia- BULLSHIT. Russian forces just entered in the capital of South Osetia and kicked Fascists out of there. Please tell me only one thing, why did Georgia attacked helpless citizens?

Oh, cut the crap! How can you still say Russia didn't invade Georgia, when we can provide numerous alternative and independent sources that claim differently? Even your own officials admitted it! Denying this is impossible now, unless you have no idea what's going on around you.

"Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks."

I cite this from one of my previous posts, i found that on yahoo. The article was quite neutrally written and provided both side stories.

And i don't think anyone said that Georgia's mass murder of more than 1500 people in South Ossetia was a good thing.

the Alternate

08-10-2008, 10:08 AM

The only reason we haven't yet taught Russia a good lesson in international manners

Sorry, but you do not seem able to at all... But you did in 90s when Russia was weak. The times seem to have changed.

I've remembered a joke as old as WWII maybe:
" - French tanks have 6 gears. 5 to retreat and only one to move forward.
- And what for is this one?
- For cases if enemy attacks from behind."

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 10:11 AM

Sorry, but you do not seem able to at all... But you did in 90s when Russia was weak. The times seem to have changed.

I've remembered a joke as old as WWII maybe:
" - French tanks have 6 gears. 5 to retreat and only one to move forward.
- And what for is this one?
- For cases if enemy attacks from behind."

Now this is just trolling, it has nothing to do with the topic.

IamSam

08-10-2008, 10:11 AM

Why is it that when we try to have a political debate on here, crazy extremists pop up faster than dandelions?

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 10:15 AM

Why is it that when we try to have a political debate on here, crazy extremists pop up faster than dandelions?

I don't know, threads like this seem to attract trolls like a magnet.

Let's try to resume the political debate now. What do you think about the latest news (i posted what i found on Yahoo a few posts ago)? Another region seems to start rebelling.

IamSam

08-10-2008, 10:30 AM

More for you non-believers.

Referring to the shooting down of a Russian Tu-22 bomber over Georgia
http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28759

Media reports say an apartment block in the Georgian town of Gori was hit by a Russian bomb.

A Russian journalist based in Georgia reported on his Internet blog that an ammunition warehouse in Gori was targeted and destroyed - which caused civilian casualties.

Also Russian planes are reported to have bombed Georgian military bases and airfields across the country as well as the seaport of Poti.

All from Russian Today.

Commie

08-10-2008, 10:39 AM

Oh f**k:(

Unfortunately I don't have much time to read all the replies thoroughly, because I'm leaving to New-York in a couple of hours, but I have a lot of things to say:

So...hmmm... let's get it started and please don't think much about my nickname, I'm not a communist at all, I just like this word:)

1. About BBC and CNN... guys - these are the channels that do show the things that are not real, and there is too much propaganda in the news there. I was in London a year ago and saw by my own eyes and heard by my own ears lots of bullshit about Russia:

the first thing was about Chechnya and it was kind of an insult for me - 'cause the news showed a civilian speaking Russian and talking about some kind of holiday in Chechnya and this person's words were interpreted in English ... mmm... not even false... CNN turned the speech about a holiday into a speech about violation of human rights in Chechnya... and I believe that is f**king wrong:(

2. Kazak is not a person living in Kazakhstan;)

3. Putin is not the president of Russia

Now about Osetia:

Guys there's one simple thing you should do, just change the word Russia to America... say not "Russian soldiers" but "American soldiers"? not "Russian citizens" but "American citizens" and let me ask you a question:

America has military bases all around the world, right? So now let's imagine that there is a country X where an American military base is situated (and has been situated for many years) and moreover lots of American citizens live in this X-country... and then one day the government of the X-country launched attack on the city where your military base was situated and "by chance" killed 1.500 American citizens and 10 american soliders... what would your country do?

You guys telling me that you would say: "Hey, there's nothing wrong in it, killing of 1510 Americans, it is o.k., so let's continue our breakfast"

I believe that even 1 death is enough to do what Russia does now, and 1510 deaths is 1510 times more enough.

Now a couple of remarks on the news and let me put everything into chronological oder:

Morning in the city I live in:
1. Georgian troops bombed Tzhinvali (I'm not quite sure about the transcription, but let it be so)
2. "by chance" 10 Russian peacemakers were killed (United Russia-Georgian peasmaking corp. has been situated in Georgia long before everything began)
3. "by chance" 1500 Russian citizens were killed
4. "by chance" Russian autocade with food and medicines was atacked
5. no reaction from Moscow.

afternoon:

6. some guys from Russian Government on TV saying that "Georgia must stop bombing Tzhinvali and come back to negotiation"

This was the point I started blaming Russian government for doing nothing in such kind of a situation.

evening:

7. Russian tanks entered South Osetia...

The situation now:

1. Russian troops are still in South Osetia and are NOT heading to Tbilisi
2. No russian bombs are dropped on civilians... and I believe that is true, because I saw the report about Russian bombs which had the picture of a civilian house with its roof burning... guys... that is bullshit, a bomb dropped on a house doesn't make its roof burn... it makes the house fall into peaces... just believe me.

P.S. Georgian president spoke English addressing to Georgian people... that's a kind of thing... emmm... that's a kind of a disrespect towards his country, I believe.

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 10:48 AM

before everything began)
3. "by chance" 1500 Russian citizens were killed

At Commie (i wrote this in capital letters, so that anyone else might understand it also):

I HAVEN'T SEEN A SINGLE COMMENT HERE THAT GEORGIA DID THE RIGHT THING WHEN THEY COMMITED A MASS MURDER OF 1500 PEOPLE! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO WRITE THIS FOR YOU TO FINALLY GET IT?

And to others who still don't believe: YOUR OFFICIALS ADMITTED THAT THEY BOMBED TARGETS IN GEORGIA; JUST READ THIS:

"Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks."

Your Minister said that it's Georgia's own guilt that Russia bombed it. THAT MEANS HE HIMSELF (and thus also RUSSIA) ADMITTED THAT RUSSIA ATTACKED GEORGIA WITH AIRSTRIKES!

Read also what IamSam posted in his last comment, if you are still TOO DUMB TO BELIEVE.

Commie

08-10-2008, 10:55 AM

Hey, guy, calm down:)

The news IamSam has posted is not new to me:)

I haven't said that Russian bombers are not bombing Georgia, I know this, yes they are bombing, but don't you think that bombing military targets and civilian targets are two different things?

Yes, I know that our fleet is near Georgia and Abhazia... and I believe that is a right thing Russia has done.

Commie

08-10-2008, 10:59 AM

By the way Morning in the city I live in:... was the morning of the 8th of August... and the evening was the evening of the 8th of August.

IamSam

08-10-2008, 11:00 AM

Commie: The problem with your 'citizen' approach is that those people in Ossetia should never have been messed with by Russia. Technically they were still Georgians, just Georgians that had tried to break away. So technically, Georgia would have killed 1500 Georgian/Russian citizens.

Russia are not saviors in this sad state of affairs. It is a situation where a larger nation stuck its nose into another nation's business, with dramatic and terrible results. Like the US, Russia is flexing its muscles against an opponent ill equipped to defend itself against such a threat. And that is reprehensible.

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 11:02 AM

Hey, guy, calm down:)

The news IamSam has posted are not new to me:)

I haven't said that Russian bombers are not bombing Georgia, I know this, yes they are bombing, but don't you think that bombing military targets and civilian targets are two different things?

Yes, I know that our fleet is near Georgia and Abhazia... and I believe that is a right thing Russia has done.

I'll edit my post a bit, that part about bombing was actually meant to other users who still refuse to believe, and i wrote it in capital letters so that they might finally get the point. I'm glad you know what's really happening :) Although some civillian targets were ALSO hit.

Only that part where i tried to make clear that NO ONE here thinks that killing of 1500 people was the right thing to do was meant to you and also to the others - a lot of people seem to think that we think a massacre of so many people is good.

Commie

08-10-2008, 11:09 AM

NO ONE here thinks that killing of 1500 people - I know this;)
I believe you must be crazy to think like that.

Commie

08-10-2008, 11:19 AM

I'd like to make my position a bit clearer:

This is politics, of course Moscow would say that Georgia provoked everything, and Georgia would say that Moscow is abusing a small country... nobody is ever right in politics, but what Russia does now is a thing I believe should be done.

And everything here is the matter of believes, you can't just sit and wait while your citizens are killed in a faraway land.

And every person that is just technically a Russian citizen - is a Russian citizen indeed.

IamSam

08-10-2008, 01:08 PM

Awesome.

TBILISI, Georgia - Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea.

Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the Sunday reports to The Associated Press and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached.

If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.

"Georgian missile patrol boats today made two attempts to attack Russian military ships. The Russian ships opened fire in response and as a result, one of the Georgian ships carrying out the attack was sunk," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a ministry spokesman as saying.

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — Georgia called a cease-fire and said its troops were retreating Sunday from the disputed province of South Ossetia in the face of Russia's far superior firepower. Russia said the soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping" and refused to recognize a truce.

The announcement of a retreat came after Russia expanded its bombing blitz Sunday — targeting the area around the Georgian capital's international airport. Russia also deployed a naval squadron off another of Georgia's separatist regions, Abkhazia, and according to Georgia landed thousands of troops.

Well...so much for peace.

Duskygrin

08-10-2008, 01:32 PM

Now this is just trolling, it has nothing to do with the topic.

This is more telling than just "trolling".

I hit a goddamn nerve, is all. It's all about power. Russia doesn't want to give in to the West, never did, never will. Sarkozy is off to Moscow to negotiate some kind of statu quo ante deal on behalf of the EU on Monday. Good luck to him.

Superdope

08-10-2008, 01:56 PM

Russia said the soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping"

Sure they were...

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 02:19 PM

Sure they were...

So what are your thoughts of this incident? I think that something massive (a big war) could come out from it if the argument would not be resolved soon...

IamSam

08-10-2008, 02:27 PM

So what are your thoughts of this incident? I think that something massive (a big war) could come out from it if the argument would not be resolved soon...

It would come from other states that would be NATO and former Soviet Bloc countries: Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states, etc. It could spread...but I really think the UN needs to act on this, and fast.

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 02:34 PM

It would come from other states that would be NATO and former Soviet Bloc countries: Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states, etc. It could spread...but I really think the UN needs to act on this, and fast.

I agree with you, UN needs to do something. With NATO involving my country would become involved too, since we are in NATO. But even if it doesn't come to that it's still very serious...

Now about Ossetia, as far as i know the land Ossetian's live on was Georgian land in the first place (i found this on wikipedia, and i couldn't find any other source that would claim that the land was Ossetian's before that :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samachablo). Correct me if i'm wrong, because i'm interested in the problem.

Superdope

08-10-2008, 02:36 PM

So what are your thoughts of this incident? I think that something massive (a big war) could come out from it if the argument would not be resolved soon...

Yeah, a bigger war could definitely be the outcome. Does anyone know if the UN has responded on this yet?

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 02:41 PM

Yeah, a bigger war could definitely be the outcome. Does anyone know if the UN has responded on this yet?

Yeah, does anyone know the conclusion of UN meeting?

IamSam

08-10-2008, 03:08 PM

UNITED NATIONS, Aug 10 (Reuters) Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that the president of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili "must go," the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, told the Security Council.

Khalilzad then looked straight at Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin and asked if Moscow was looking for "regime change."

"Is the goal of the Russian Federation to change the leadership of Georgia?" he said.

Churkin did not directly address the question but said there are leaders who "become an obstacle."

"Sometimes those leaders need to contemplate how useful they have become to their people," he told reporters later.

"Regime change is purely an American invention," he said. "We're all for democracy in Georgia."

Khalilzad also accused Russia of preventing the withdrawal of Georgian forces from South Ossetia to prolong the conflict and prevent Georgia from laying down its arms.

"Since Russia is impeding Georgian forces from withdrawing, rejecting a cease-fire and continuing to carry out military attacks against civilian centers, its claims of a humanitarian purpose clearly are not credible," Khalilzad said.

Here you go. Sounds like the start of the Second Cold War.

Raptor88

08-10-2008, 03:11 PM

Here you go. Sounds like the start of the Second Cold War.

Third world war actually. This doesn't look good...

IamSam

08-10-2008, 03:20 PM

Third world war actually. This doesn't look good...

The probability of the US entering the war are, IMO, low. We may supply countries with supplies, possibly small units, but the majority of our forces are in Iraq. True, Iraq asked today for a concrete time line for US withdrawl, I doubt anything will happen until the next president takes office early next year. The US could send a battlegroup (naval group centered around an aircraft carrier) and that would give Georgia air supremacy, possibly turn some land battles with pinpoint bombing and close air support, but that's putting a lot of weight on Georgian forces.

EDIT: As of right now Ukraine has 5 military observers in Georgia.

wheelchairman

08-10-2008, 05:02 PM

yes it is. But here the subject isn't something that outstands from the general. Look, the law was purposed to let any citizen of Soviet Union, a predcessor to Russian Federation, to become a citizen of Russia. When it was accepted it didn't suppose any conflicts. There is no special purpose in it. No one offered the passports but it is not legitime to reject.

You don't think that while the Soviet Union was collapsing and nations were breaking away that when they grant citizenship to these countries they weren't predicting some kind of conflict? You really don't think so?

Oh f**k:(

Unfortunately I don't have much time to read all the replies thoroughly, because I'm leaving to New-York in a couple of hours, but I have a lot of things to say:

So...hmmm... let's get it started and please don't think much about my nickname, I'm not a communist at all, I just like this word:)

1. About BBC and CNN... guys - these are the channels that do show the things that are not real, and there is too much propaganda in the news there. I was in London a year ago and saw by my own eyes and heard by my own ears lots of bullshit about Russia:

This raises an interesting point of which I believe you are also guilty of later on in this post. Everything we are discussing is second hand information. Now personally I find more credibility in the BBC than I do in, well any Russian news source. Not that I take the BBC at face value of course. Everything we hear is at least second hand, if not far far more.

You guys telling me that you would say: "Hey, there's nothing wrong in it, killing of 1510 Americans, it is o.k., so let's continue our breakfast"

You see, you were talking about the lying media, these are all unconfirmed reports reported to you at least second hand and probably 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th to the nth power handed. Yet you criticize people for not checking their sources when you don't really understand the basic way that this statistic was created? Or even if it is valid at all.

P.S. Georgian president spoke English addressing to Georgian people... that's a kind of thing... emmm... that's a kind of a disrespect towards his country, I believe.
It's a bit irrelevant and taken out of context.

Commie: The problem with your 'citizen' approach is that those people in Ossetia should never have been messed with by Russia. Technically they were still Georgians, just Georgians that had tried to break away. So technically, Georgia would have killed 1500 Georgian/Russian citizens.
Except there is nothing "technical" about nationality.